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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) primer pocket shims (Read 1939 times)
.22-5-40
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primer pocket shims
Mar 16th, 2019 at 11:58am
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Had some time on my hands between jobs & had a brainstorm.  I had read where using large pistol primers in regular large rifle pockets could lead to peening of breech block face due to shorter pistol primers getting running start and slamming into block.  Now I don't know how much of a run they could get in only .008"..the height difference between the LR & LP primer, but I turned up some half-hard brass to .2105" dia. & drilled .062" hole thru.  Using thin part off tool made from tool bit, I parted off a dozen .008" shims.  Hardest part was catching those little suckers before they got lost in chip pan.
    Now then, do you think using these would be practicle..and worthwhile?..any thoughts on danger?  Thanks!
  
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marlinguy
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #1 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 12:24pm
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Seems like a futile effort when the correct primers aren't any more expensive than the incorrect primers? Simpler solution is just use the correct primer.
  

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Fred Boulton
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #2 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 12:48pm
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Superb! A classic enthusiasts solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Fred
  
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frnkeore
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #3 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 12:49pm
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As a machinist, it sounds like a LOT of work! And as you note, dropping them in the chip pan would be very frustrating too!! BTW, how do you deburr them?

Now regarding them hurting the face of the breech block. Until I went to the 357 Max case, I used F150's in ALL my rifles that took LRP's including 3 HW's, 1 Borchardt, one 44 1/2, 1 Sys Will and  my non harden Hoch. I never had any damage to the face of the breech block, in any of them.

You could also try making bushings, to use SRP in the large primer pockets. That might bare more fruit.

Frank
  

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.22-5-40
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #4 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 12:57pm
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I didn't say, but the reason for the pistol primer was for gentler ingnition ..greater accuracy?  with black powder loads. 
Frnkeore..I have been thinking of turning up some stainless LR-SR bushings..have to come up with a .1745" dia. reamer...perhaps make up a half reamer?
  
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Premod70
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #5 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 1:13pm
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Heard someone a while back that was using a c-clip or snap ring of some sorts for that purpose but that went in one ear and out the other.
  
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JLouis
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #6 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 1:15pm
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I simply made a swage to reduce the Large Rifle Primer pocket depths to minimum Large Pistol Primer depth specs. I have also seen the damage to the breech block face that some would say does not exist. Kermit Hoke ( Kermittool ) now retired also used to make and sell the same type of primer pocket reducing depth tool for use on a reloading press.
« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2019 at 1:37pm by JLouis »  
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JerryH
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #7 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 1:19pm
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Kermit Hoke used to make a primer pocket tool that would reduce a large rifle primer case to a large pistol primer depth. I have one I used when I was still shooting BPCR Silhouette. Not sure if he still has any or not, but you could check.

JerryH
  

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frnkeore
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #8 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 1:50pm
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.22-5-40 wrote on Mar 16th, 2019 at 12:57pm:
Frnkeore..I have been thinking of turning up some stainless LR-SR bushings..have to come up with a .1745" dia. reamer...perhaps make up a half reamer?

The only way that I would make them, is with a CNC, screw machine or at the bare minimum, a small turret. There isn't much tolerance on the ID size so, the reamer would have to either float or be very close, on center, to work out.

Frank
  

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JLouis
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #9 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 1:59pm
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I believe this is a Kermit Hoke there was another gentleman who was making and selling them too. Mine is much more simplified and for use in an arbor press.

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cheatin_charlie
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #10 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 4:00pm
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I also had the non existance breechblock peened on my High Wall using large pistol primers in a 40-65 using black powder.  I took the shell holder and ground
a slot in it to accept paper strips of the required thickness.  When priming put paper in slot and ran primer thru it into case.  I now can use pistol primers and also paper in front of primer to lessen primer flash.  I sold my High Wall but now
use the same technique on Stevens 32-40 with blackpowder.  It did improve accuracy for me.
Waiting for summer so I can shoot some bragging groups with black powder.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #11 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 5:25pm
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I use pistol primers in some loads with BP as I get a little better SD's in some cases.   Meacham Tool & Die used to make a swaging tool but he retired before I could order one.

Kirk at Shiloh advises not to use pistol primers in the rifles he makes.  He has seen breech blocks damaged by them.  I use them in one of my Shiloh Sharps rifles, but it worked out for me as I bought a bunch of defective Remington brass that had shallow primer pockets that just happen to only work with pistol primers Smiley

Chris.
  
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #12 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 6:19pm
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I too tried pistol primers last fall in my 40-85 Ballard.....the first 200 yd group showed a huge improvement. Was worried about denting the breech, but a dozen shots seemed ok. Considered paper under primer for a spacer but have not tried it yet. A top shooter we all know told me about trying the pistol primers. If money was no problem I would have a new custom made batch of brass for the small primers.
  
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Mick B
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #13 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 7:45pm
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With my 40-60 CPA I found that ignition was a bit iffy when using large pistol primers and the problem was solved by seating the primers through newspaper, no more iffy ignitions.
I wrongly thought that perhaps the firing pin in my CPA was a trifle short so I ordered another from Gail. When it arrived (free of charge ) I measured it and found that it was exactly the same length as the one in my rifle, so that screwed that theory.
Anyway seating the LMP primers through paper solved the problem and is no hardship, also costs  nothing to do.
Mike.
  
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JLouis
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #14 - Mar 16th, 2019 at 8:07pm
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Primers do make a difference and all of them should be tried. I have been having great success with the Federal Large Pistol Magnum Match with 300MP and the powder used also comes into play. But I also highly recommend that you don't use Pistol Primers unless the primer pockets have been reduced to the LP minimum specs. I would never encourage anyone to do anything that would or could damage a breech block face and why I would never advocate their use if the primer pockets depth has not first been reduced. And this is what I do and use in my 32-40.
« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2019 at 8:18pm by JLouis »  
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notlwonk
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #15 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 8:25am
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Making a punch and die would simplify the making of brass/aluminum/?? washers...well......once the die is made it would be simple.
  
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JLouis
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #16 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 1:59pm
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Cheatin_Charlie and Gunlaker thank you for also sharing your information on the breech block damage created from Large Pistol primer use. Hopefully it will keep others from damaging their breech blocks by listening to those who would encourage their use. Luckily the last one destroyed in our group had a bushing that took the abuse and was inexpensively replaced.
  
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OLD TUCK
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #17 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 5:11pm
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Guy's I have over the years heard of this concern a few times. Early on a I spoke to friend about it and he agreed it might happen. His response was I now seat my Pistol Primers in a Large Primer pocket FLUSH so there is no running start for the Primer to beat up the breech block face. I left it off at that and have never concerned myself. Regards, FITZ. OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #18 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 5:25pm
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I have been using the paper under the primer trick in my CPA rifles and a couple of my highwall repros. 

If I were a machinist I would have a try at making the swaging tool.   I have this feeling that most of you guys are at the very least, home machinists, if not professionals.

I was amazed several years ago when I shot in Tacoma with Bob, Jack, and the rest of the Washington state people.  It seems that everyone but me had machining and gunsmithing skills.

Chris.
  
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #19 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 6:32pm
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My main CPA has been in use since 1994, brief use lgRifle Mag primers then to Large Pistol probably 10,000 CF shots no issues with the breech block, well over 10,000 RF.  Switching barrels and block one reason I like Lg Pistol. Run the same Hammer spring tension CF RF and the lighter RF Hammer setting makes the gun easier to cock.

Boats
  
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #20 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 7:50pm
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I don't have a dog in this fight , but I'm mighty skeptical of pistol primers "peening" a breechblock.   

Can someone post pictures?
  
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cheatin_charlie
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #21 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 10:11pm
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For what it is worth I have never heard of peening of the breech block using smokless powders.  I believe it is when using full power loads of black powder that causes the problem.  Black is a low grade explosive and creates instant pressure compared to smokless.  The primer gets blown back with more velocity than with smokless.  I am not an engineer but that is my theory for what it is worth.  I fixed my rifle and shot rifle primers and did not have anymore problems.  And I only had .002 head space when I built the rifle and it did not increase with use.  Now with my 32-40 using paper under the pistol primer the primer is flush with the rear of the case.
I will continue to use pistol primers without the paper when using smokeless powder with no fear of peening the breachblock.
  
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JLouis
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #22 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 10:40pm
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The only ones damaged that I know of was while they were using smokeless powders and not while using Black?
  
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #23 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 12:36am
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one might want to consider, and I suspect someone on here already has,  researched the primers to start with.  Some primers are hotter than others.  It may be worth trying the brand that is the "least" hot.  If printed material is not available, and I know it is on shotshell primers, a good chronograph would be a big help .
  
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #24 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:03am
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I've never used pistol primers to try and get as low a primer force as I could. I've always had the opposite theory to try and get maximum primer force for cleaner burned blackpowder and also maximum velocity. In my 40-65 I use 70gr of 1. 5Fg and Fed 215 Mag primers for a 428 gr bullet. At a match last month during the practice session I shot this same load but some were with 215 primers and others with CCI BR2 primers. The BR2 primers were about 4 MOA lower on the Ram compared to the 215 Mag primers. I believe that the 215 primer are giving me a more complete burn of this charge weight.
I also use the 215 primers in my light load for chickens or 63 gr of 1.5 Fg under a 410 gr bullet.
I also cam my rounds into the rifling when I raise the breachblock and I do not use neck tension. If you use neck tension and load with some bullet jump than maybe my recipe would not work for you and perhaps a light primer force is the correct one to use.
  
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #25 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:47am
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There was much discussion of the “peened breechblock syndrome” on the Shiloh Sharps site; probably ten years or more back.  IIRC, most of it was in connection with the general inferiority of Italian copies of black powder rifles vs. the American versions.

When it became obvious that the better Italian copies had none of the poorly-hardened parts that allegedly peened themselves into uselessness in a few shots, the defenders of American infant industries switched gears from metallurgical expertise to international currency expertise, claiming that an American replica could be gotten for the price of a couple Happy Meals more than an Italian one, given the fluctuation of the Euro vs. the Dollar on the Swiss Bourse, dont’cha know.  With about the same nodding acquaintance with the truth as the other accusation.

Certainly a poorly-hardened breechblock will show peening, no matter who makes it, but I have seen none of this phenomenon in either my US or Italian blackpowder rifles, and I use Federal GMM Large Pistol primers, with primer wads punched by the primer on seating.

The idea there is to generate the mildest impulse possible, so the powder column doesn’t break up and the bullet doesn’t move appreciably before the powder charge itself starts to burn.  It seems to work, for me at least; I get better targets with the wads than without them.  It might well be voodoo; I read an article way back when (in Rifle or Handloader, can’t remember which) where the author queried the component manufacturers and found that there is exactly the same weight of priming compound in Rifle and Pistol primers of a given size and type.  The only difference, they said, was the relative hardness of the cups, and, of course the depth difference in the Large versions.

I use strips of paper cut from Official ASSRA targets for the primer wads.  The paper is very uniform, of a good thickness, and, since all the holes are in the exact center,  Roll Eyes there’s plenty of paper left to repurpose.
  
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.22-5-40
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Re: primer pocket shims
Reply #26 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 3:30pm
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After reading all the replys, I probably have worried over a non issue.  Anyway..here is what I tried.  Using a Whitetail carbide large primer pocket uniformer, I uniformed 5 new Win. .32-40 cases.   The uniformer leaves pocket .130" deep.   Turned up .2105" dia. brass rod with .062" thru hole & parted off at .012" thickness.  These were pressed in with high strength lLockTite & allowed to fully cure.  I then used a carbide large pistol pocket uniformer to bring pocket to proper depth.  The problem is there is only about .006" to .007" thickness left on shim after this and 4 out of the 5 came out during this operation.  The solution would be to deepen original pocket to allow thicker shim..but this is something I would not care to do.
   How would a swaging tool work..it seems metal would need to come from somewhere and thinning brass at bottom of pocket seems to be the only way.  Again, probably nothing to worry about with a proper heat-treated breech face.  I did give RCM a call..they are still taking orders..I was going to ask for some .32-40 Everlasting cases for breech-seating with L.P. pockets..but was told they had problems with .32-40 cases cracking and will not make this size.
  
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