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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues! (Read 1647 times)
Rocketnutz
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ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Mar 29th, 2019 at 12:54pm
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J. Stevens A&T Co. Pat. Oct 29.89 - Model 45? . . . .

Hello, I hoping to get some assistance identifying and possible value on a recent piece I acquired.

It is stamped "45" and "0" on the end of the action (behind the foregrip).
The Barrel has "11XXX" and "1" on it, and does not look to be a pope barrel, but a lighter weight "No 1" version.
28" long. (not the standard 26") Half octagon. (so longer and lighter then normal).

Chambered in 22 LR (not the more common 25 Stevens).
It also has a numbers matching Swiss butt plate.

Front site looks to be a "Beach Combination" flip sight with ivory post and looped pin bead.
(Lyman No.5) - with pat info stamped into outer ring (ending in JJLY14.91)

Rear site is a tang, which appears to be original, Stevens model (like a #104 or #108) WITH a thumb screw, but NO wind-age, and a fixed .050 eyecup. (so a cross between a 100 and a 104)

Action is an older Model 44, with the curved mainspring, and a "7'oclock" extractor. Single trigger - not DST.

My best guess so far is that based on the stamping and combination of barrel, action, and sights - that it should date about 1889-1894 for manufacture (some time after 1889 but before 1900 (or even before Apr. 17, 1894).
--Using the logic that if it was manufactured post 1894 - then the barrel would NOT have the Oct.29.89 patent stamping.)

Straight stock - no pistol grip!.  Swiss buttplate.

While I don't have full access to catalogs (only sparse web images here and there) - I could not find a direct match as far back at Catalog #50 of 1902.  I have not been able to find enough web info on catalogs prior to that.


She looks to be a bit of an "Odd Duck" for the higher end Model 45, but on an older 44 action, with lighter barrel, swiss butt, improved but not top end sights
(and single trigger).

Any feedback and assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.

« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2019 at 1:54pm by Rocketnutz »  

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Redsetter
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #1 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 3:19pm
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Nothing odd about it--a typical, older #45 model.  The #44 model number was introduced in '96 (previously, a 3-digit no. was used), & the side-extractor was phased out 1898-9, so that dates it narrowly.

.25 Stevens is NOT more common than .22LR, though the LR is worth more than any other RF.
  
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Redsetter
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #2 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 3:30pm
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Rocketnutz wrote on Mar 29th, 2019 at 12:54pm:
--Using the logic that if it was manufactured post 1894 - then the barrel would NOT have the Oct.29.89 patent stamping.)


Logic does not apply to Stevens' system of marking its products. That brl. may have been in inventory years before it was assembled to a rcvr.
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #3 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 3:45pm
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Thanks for the input.

So far what I find a little "odd", is the lighter weight #1 barrel on 28", combined with the sights.

Lyman #5 Beach (with ivory bead), and a "pre" No. 104 tang sight.
It has the thumb stem screw, but not the base swing knob.  There is also no wind-age adjustment.

  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #4 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 5:11pm
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Rocketnutz wrote on Mar 29th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
So far what I find a little "odd", is the lighter weight #1 barrel on 28", combined with the sights.

Lyman #5 Beach (with ivory bead), and a "pre" No. 104 tang sight.


You're right, a little unusual--26" #2 brl. was standard, but #1 was available at the same price.  That combination of sights was called the "D" package, for about $4 extra.

But something new to me is that screw head on top of the hammer. Does it regulate sear engagement, for adjusting trigger pull?
« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2019 at 5:20pm by Redsetter »  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #5 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 5:26pm
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I have no idea to be honest.

The trigger pull is pretty light right now - but I have not put my gauge on it.
About 2.5 lbs I would guess.


  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #6 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 5:51pm
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Rocketnutz wrote on Mar 29th, 2019 at 5:26pm:
I have no idea to be honest.

The trigger pull is pretty light right now - but I have not put my gauge on it.
About 2.5 lbs I would guess.


Short of removing the hammer to inspect it, you can turn the screw in or out to determine the result on pull. 
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #7 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 6:42pm
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The most interesting thing to me, IS that screw! Not a Steven feature, for sure.

As Red said, the barrel, being a 28", #1, might have been in stock for a while. To my thinking, the #1 barrels, were mostly for lady's and boy's. My DST, 45, had a #1 barrel on it. I discarded it, long ago but, I think it was a 26". I always though it it was probably purchased for someones wife. The small #2, hooked butt plate, fit's a woman or boy, better too. The optional, larger #3 butt plate and at least a #3 barrel, would be more inline with a man's rifle.

I tried my #2 butt plate on one of my 44 1/2 butt stocks and it wasn't very comfortable to me. The crescent butt plate, fit's me much better and that's why I think the #1 barrel, with a #2 butt plate was more for boy's or women.

Frank
  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #8 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 10:16pm
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The screw in the hammer is a new one to me. I'm curious as to what its function is. I doubt that it's factory but with Stevens you can never be 100% sure. Sights are easy to change and to be truthful there is no way to know who put them there and as long as they are correct it doesn't matter. I go with tang sights or scopes on a lot of guns because my old eyes shoot better with them.
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #9 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 11:04pm
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slumlord44 wrote on Mar 29th, 2019 at 10:16pm:
The screw in the hammer is a new one to me. I'm curious as to what its function is. I doubt that it's factory but with Stevens you can never be 100% sure.


As Frank said, not factory, but I thought it might serve this function because somewhere long ago, I read about installing a screw drilled into the full-cock notch to limit the depth of sear engagement; probably not the best way to lighten trigger pull, but a fairly simple modification that worked.

As this is a very clean, but not mint, gun, I'd say this modification adds, rather than detracts, from its value.
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #10 - Mar 29th, 2019 at 11:19pm
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As everybody has noted, the screw in the hammer IS the most interesting thing about this rifle.  Moreover, while what Red says makes sense as to its probable purpose, I can't say I've ever seen the like before on any rifle.  So come on, Rocketnutz; play with it and tell us what you discover.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #11 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 9:44am
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Did a little tinkering.

Trigger pull is right now between 1.0 and 1.3 pounds!

Turning the screw on the hammer out did not seem to make a difference.

Turning the screw on the hammer IN (about 1 turn) - made it so the hammer would not catch - so it looks to be the sear engagement.

  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #12 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 9:48am
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #13 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 9:48am
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #14 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 9:49am
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #15 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 10:34am
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I had a 44 that was identical. It did indeed adjust the trigger pull and that pull was sweet !!! It had a Niedner / Malden Mass bbl in 25/21. I always assumed it was his work.
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #16 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 2:14pm
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I'm sure they were a factory option.  I have owned two and have seen at least one other.  Like Stevens rather problematic single set trigger, they were apparently not very popular.   

The screw had a cone shaped end which limited the sear engagement as it was turned in.

Leon
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #17 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 3:30pm
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ACGould wrote on Mar 30th, 2019 at 2:14pm:
I'm sure they were a factory option.  I have owned two and have seen at least one other.  Like Stevens rather problematic single set trigger, they were apparently not very popular.   
Leon


Must be that "hammer with set screw," $1 extra, that I just found listed in the Ideal parts list of the '96 catalog; though with no further description, I wouldn't have understood what that option meant.
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #18 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 3:37pm
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Good for you Red; I didn't look back far enough.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #19 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 3:47pm
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With all that - that still puts her somewhere between 1889 & 1896 (ish).

The 11XXX serial, while not "low" is not very high either.

I do like to think that if the unit was put together after 1894 - it would have carried the later patent roll stamp.

Coupled with the fact that the numbers match on barrel, tang and butt plate.


Little of a "odd duck" - hehehehe


  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #20 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 4:17pm
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Rocketnutz wrote on Mar 29th, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Thanks for the input.

So far what I find a little "odd", is the lighter weight #1 barrel on 28", combined with the sights.

Lyman #5 Beach (with ivory bead), and a "pre" No. 104 tang sight.
It has the thumb stem screw, but not the base swing knob.  There is also no wind-age adjustment.


Your tang sight is the Stevens No. 100 Mid-Range Vernier Peep.
Regarding the sights that Stevens offered circa 1900, Stevens stated "We will fit any sights to our rifles, but for convenience we have grouped the sights as they are generally matched, vis.:"
If your rifle was ordered with the "G Sights" group, the No. 100 Mid-Range Vernier Peep would have been matched with the Stevens Wind-Gauge Front sight.
The "E-Sights" group consisted of the Lyman #5 Combination Front sight matched with the Lyman Tang Sight.
And a bunch of sights swapping has occurred during the past 12 decades of time.

If you happen to find a Stevens catalog circa 1900, and look in the component parts price list for the "Ideal" rifle, you'll see some options listed for the hammer:
No. 6. Hammer...    $0.70
No. 6A. Hammer with Set Screw...    $1.00
No. 6B. Hammer with Stirrup and Fly...    $1.25
It looks like the "No. 6A Hammer with Set Screw" was installed in your particular rifle.
  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #21 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 4:44pm
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Rocketnutz wrote on Mar 30th, 2019 at 3:47pm:
I do like to think that if the unit was put together after 1894 - it would have carried the later patent roll stamp.


Ideal models made prior to sometime in '96 weren't known as "44s"--they all had 3-digit model numbers beginning with 1, such as 110.  The Model 45 you have did not exist by that number until 1896 at the earliest.

Use of "old" parts on "new" models is common in gun-making when parts are made up in large batches, to be used later as needed, sometimes years later.
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #22 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 4:52pm
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BP wrote on Mar 30th, 2019 at 4:17pm:
If you happen to find a Stevens catalog circa 1900, and look in the component parts price list for the "Ideal" rifle, you'll see some options listed for the hammer:


The 1900 catalog also lists special hammer & block screws for Schuetzen models.  Perhaps because Schuetzen receivers were thicker than standard models, requiring longer screws?
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #23 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 5:04pm
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Rocketnutz wrote on Mar 29th, 2019 at 12:54pm:
...

The Barrel has "11XXX" and "1" on it, and does not look to be a pope barrel, but a lighter weight "No 1" version.
28" long. (not the standard 26") Half octagon. (so longer and lighter then normal).

Chambered in 22 LR (not the more common 25 Stevens).
...

One other note... just looked at the Telegraphic Code section that Stevens used for ordering rifles...
For the Ideal Rifle No. 44 chambered in .22 Long rifle, R.F.
with the 24-in. barrel, the code was...     Van
with the 26-in. barrel, the code was...     Vein
with the 28-in. barrel, the code was…      Vine
with the 30-in, barrel, the code was...     Vote

Other caliber chamberings and their various barrel lengths had different respective telegraph codes associated to them.

 
  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #24 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 6:29pm
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Yes, BP, but the standard barrel supplied was a # 2, not a # 1; therefore, it's still at least an odd duckling.

Also, on the assumption that a "hammer with stirrup and fly" would have been automatically supplied with set triggers, why would you order such a hammer by itself?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #25 - Mar 30th, 2019 at 9:16pm
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Bill,
The standard frame is pictured... not the 44 frame that was milled out to accept a double-set trigger lower tang assembly which should have been accompanied by the 6B Hammer with Stirrup and Fly.
Don't see mention that a single-set trigger assembly was installed.
For me personally, the 6A hammer may provide a usable adjustment range... able to provide a light sear engagement for use on the target range (a hammer with fly might be useful here, but not necessary if you apply proper trigger follow-through), and also able to provide a heavier sear engagement when out hunting in the game fields.
PS:  I do have a couple Stevens that are not equipped with set triggers, but which do have a Hammer with Stirrup and Fly installed, and that doesn't bother me in the slightest... they are Stevens rifles, after all.    Wink


  

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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #26 - Mar 31st, 2019 at 12:06am
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Could you post a pic of those "hammer with stirrup and fly"?  The DST setup used my DST Model 44 is almost identical to the 44 1/2, which has a radically different mainspring for starters.  Hadn't thought to see whether that hammer would otherwise fit a Model 44, but I'd think that the spring alone would preclude it. 

*****************
Filling in a blank - on page 32 of More Single Shot Rifles, Grant describes on a Model 107, s/n 2291, the screw through from the top of the hammer as a "trigger adjusting screw".   
 
« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2019 at 2:19am by uscra112 »  
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Re: ODD Duck - Model 45 . . . looking for clues!
Reply #27 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 9:24pm
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I have an identical model 45 in the 5xxx range in 22short with a 28" barrel and a little different tang sight....mine doesnt have a screw in the hammer...
  
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