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John Boy
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Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Apr 1st, 2019 at 1:06pm
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Ordered the Savage & Stevens Arms book and started reading, like the book... all Stevens firearms had a unique model number in their catalogs including the name of the model.  Examples: all the Favorites were identified as #17 - #27 and #20 with details for each

Of interest:  have 3 Tip UP's.
* 1898 Catalog: Stevens No 2 - Stevens No 7 (Premier) and Stevens No 11 and 13. (Ladies Model) stamped on the left side of the Actions 
* Then in another 1898 catalog listed as Stevens No 5 and No's 11 & 13
Then in the 1935 catalog, the Favorites became the No 27 and 20 (smooth bore for 22 & 32 shot shells)
So I have a No 2 Tip Up in 25RF but also have 2 Tip Up shotguns (16 & 12's) that are not listed
Now the mystery Q' ... What was a Stevens No 1?  Roll Eyes It was a Tip Up made between 1872 and 1897 called the 'Sporting Rifle No 1' in 32-38-44 Long Rim Fires's or center fire

Now another bit of information in the book: in May 1915 Stevens management sold all their production facilities to the New England Westinghouse Winchester  Embarrassed Company because Stevens did not want to manufacture military firearms for the war effort. After WWI, the government issued a subpoena to Winchester deeming that they overpriced prices for the 1,500,000 Nagants made for Russia.  So Westinghouse BURNED ALL THE STEVENS RECORDS.  So now we know the rest of the story
« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2019 at 1:56pm by John Boy »  

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frnkeore
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #1 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 1:19pm
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John Boy wrote on Apr 1st, 2019 at 1:06pm:
Now another bit of information in the book: in May 1915 Stevens management sold all their production facilities to the New England Winchester Company because Stevens did not want to manufacture military firearms for the war effort. After WWI, the government issued a subpoena to Winchester deeming that they overpriced prices for the 1,500,000 Nagants made for Russia.  So Winchester BURNED ALL THE STEVENS RECORDS.  So now we know the rest of the story


Is the book saying that Westinghouse, did not buy or own Stevens?

Frank
  

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John Boy
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #2 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 1:52pm
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Frank - my typo error ... was New England Westinghouse Company not Winchester  Embarrassed
  

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Redsetter
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #3 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 2:07pm
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John Boy wrote on Apr 1st, 2019 at 1:06pm:
Now another bit of information in the book: in May 1915 Stevens management sold all their production facilities to the New England Winchester Company because Stevens did not want to manufacture military firearms for the war effort. After WWI, the government issued a subpoena to Winchester deeming that they overpriced prices for the 1,500,000 Nagants made for Russia.  So Winchester BURNED ALL THE STEVENS RECORDS.  So now we know the rest of the story


It's a false story, or rather your interpretation of it is.  The author merely says on p. 128 that a "Congressional inquiry" prompted the records destruction, which occurred long after Savage bought the company in 1920.

This author says on p. 12 that Westinghouse "purchased" Stevens, while others say merely that Westinghouse "acquired control," which implies a lease arrangement, as does the fact that the company was reorganized in 1916.  Because almost NOBODY writing about guns thinks they're obliged to conform with the recognized protocol in historical research of IDENTIFYING THEIR SOURCES, the truth of the matter is still unverified.

He also says that "limited production" of Stevens products continued while the plant was still engaged in completing the Russian contract, which would be quite interesting if true, but once again, not one iota of evidence is presented to support this contention; it came by divine revelation, we must assume.


  
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Redsetter
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #4 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 2:44pm
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With respect to the ownership of Stevens during WWI, it stands to reason that somewhere in Mass. state tax or other records, changes in ownership of Mass.-based companies would be recorded.  I have no idea how to go about investigating this, & I suspect it would require legal assistance to do it properly.

But I did find this record, which raises more questions than it answers: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Why no record of Westinghouse, Savage, or any other changes since the original incorporation date?
  
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John Boy
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #5 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 4:20pm
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Date of Involuntary Dissolution:   12-31-1990
One really has to scratch their head about the dissolution date with all the name changes and Westinghouse sale
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #6 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 4:34pm
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New England Westinghouse was formed with the sole purpose of buying Stevens Arms Co. and taking over production of Nagant rifles for sale to Russia. They also got Stevens-Duryea, and the Stevens Tool Co., but sold off the tool division and shut down the automobile manufacturing division.
New England Westinghouse was part of Westinghouse Electric, and the purchase of all Stevens assets was completed in 1916. Westinghouse's efforts to stall government investigators by destroying all their firearms records did not work. The US Supreme court eventually closed down New England Westinghouse in 1926. The Savage Arms. Co. bought Stevens after WWI in 1920. Somehow Westinghouse was able to sell Stevens to Savage Arms Co. without even owning it? Amazing! Pretty sure Savage wouldn't have given them any money if they didn't own the company.
Take a look at Savage Arms Co.'s own web site history timeline. Even they think they bought Stevens.
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« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2019 at 4:51pm by marlinguy »  

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Redsetter
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #7 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 6:29pm
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marlinguy wrote on Apr 1st, 2019 at 4:34pm:
The Savage Arms. Co. bought Stevens after WWI in 1920. Somehow Westinghouse was able to sell Stevens to Savage Arms Co. without even owning it?


The Savage website states merely the well-known fact that Stevens (presumably the "J. Stevens" reorganization of 1916) was purchased in 1920.  How does that clarify the nature of Westinghouse's involvement?

Any change in ownership of real property would have to be recorded in the local county Real Property Dept.  This should be fairly simple to investigate in person, or a records search could be hired out to a title company, but has anyone done it?   
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #8 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 6:34pm
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Is that what it will take for you to believe Savage bought it from Westinghouse? Or will you need another reason once this question is answered?
Why the big resistance to accepting Westinghouse owned Stevens at that time?
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #9 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 7:34pm
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Just for fun. Here's the old Stevens Arms Co. factory. It's still there, and abandoned.

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And another site that shows the old Stevens factory, and many others as they were, and are today.

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Redsetter
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #10 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 7:57pm
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marlinguy wrote on Apr 1st, 2019 at 6:34pm:
Why the big resistance to accepting Westinghouse owned Stevens at that time?


I have none at all.  What is your resistance to obtaining firm documentation that that's what occurred?  Seems interesting to me even if it merely confirms what has been assumed to be true.
  
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 8:13pm
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What is your resistance to obtaining firm documentation that that's what occurred?

Mr. Redsetter,
You sound like Pelosi.
You can read the whole Mueller report, but the POTUS is still innocent. Grin

Auggy
  

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools !
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #12 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 9:14pm
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This may be throwing the proverbial skunk into the tent, but here goes:  On a parallel note, Hopkins and Allen made a bid for making Belgian M-1889 Mauser rifles with a too low bid, and lost their shirt on the deal, they shut down their bread and butter products and were in bankruptcy by 1917, and some sort of a war production board took over.  The same Westinghouse branch managed the financial affairs, and production was turned over to Marlin which had ties to the Westinghouse people.  One story was that the plant made M-1917 BARs, which I have never seen, but the Texas Military Forces Museum in Austin has a Colt "potato digger" machine gun with a Marlin roll stamp that looks bad, but shoots good.  Marlin bought the H&A machinery in 1921.

Both Stevens and H&A made good barrels, so the government could not let that pass when we needed good rifled products.  I was not aware until today that the same Westinghouse division was involved in Stevens also.  The Stevens name survived, and the Hopkins & Allen name re-emerged when George Numrich bought it from Marlin, for a few under-hammer rifles.

James Hays
  
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #13 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 1:38am
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I've seen Stevens accused of burning the records too much and the timing makes it seem more related to the Westinghouse ownership (shall we say stewardship to calm the waters?) Wink.

Got the bright idea to try to research the date of any big fires in Chicopee Falls around 19teens to 1920's and nothing. I would think that this would be a headline with some historical legs. Might need to be a local to dig in the newspaper morgue? Wayne
  
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Re: Got an Education about Stevens Firearms
Reply #14 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 9:45am
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LarryLee wrote on Apr 2nd, 2019 at 1:38am:
Got the bright idea to try to research the date of any big fires in Chicopee Falls around 19teens to 1920's and nothing. I would think that this would be a headline with some historical legs.


It is a bright idea, but it might be more productive to concentrate your search on  the years 1934-5, which was the period that the Nye Committee in Congress was investigating war-profiteering during WWI. 

However, you still may find nothing, because a fire only large enough to destroy these records wouldn't necessarily have been front-page news; although, to serve as an alibi for the missing records, management of the factory (then owned by Savage) would have had to report the fire to the local fire dept. or other authority.  Don't you think it's interesting that so many "know" all about this fire, but none can report when it occurred?

If this destruction occurred during the Nye hearings, so long after the war, seems to me that (had those records actually been subpoenaed) Savage/Stevens could very plausibly have alleged that they had been discarded soon after the war because there appeared no good reason to preserve such outdated & unneeded "rubbish."
« Last Edit: Apr 2nd, 2019 at 10:01am by Redsetter »  
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