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« Created by: coljimmy on: May 3rd, 2019 at 11:13pm »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ... (Read 2061 times)
Captain Bob
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #15 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 3:15pm
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There were shot to shot changes as much as 200 fps. Moved the chronograph out to 20 feet adn tested again to see if the shock wave of the muzzle blast may have cause the wide spread in the velocities recorded and that prove not to be the problem at all. I'm very inclined to look for another design in a bullet mold that will work in my rifle with it's 1 in13" twist rate.
   Any one else had the same experince with IMR4227 and the wide spread in velocite andnburned powder in the barrel? There is a noteable amount of unburned crumbs in the bore with IMR4227.  Sendaro


I had large velocity speads with H4227 in load range you were using with the 87gr RCBS bullet cast from 20:1 alloy in my 1:13 twist Stevens 44 1/2 25-20SS rifle, changed to 7gr of 2400 and used Win small rifle primers in Jamison brass, velocity about 1500fps, only fired at 50yds as it was a load I worked up for squirrel hunting when I lived in PA. It did shoot cleaner than H4227 and with my scoped rifle it gave 1/2" to 3/4" 5 shot groups at 50yds.
Always tried to find a Lyman/Ideal 257231 mould in 106gr version (no luck), seemed to me it should shoot very well in the 1:13 twist barrel.
Fred Leeth at Pioneer Products (937-839-4362) cuts a 103gr mould #25804103 that I'd like to try, probably order one this winter for next years testing.  Mike


"Any one else had the same experince with IMR4227 and the wide spread in velocite andnburned powder in the barrel? There is a noteable amount of unburned crumbs in the bore with IMR4227."  Sendaro


I settled on the 7.5 grains of 2400 with the Lyman 257420 GC bullet. (The heavier plain base bullet leaded, this one doesn't.) I took it to the 100 meter silhouette match and after some hurried shooting to try to get beginning sight settings managed to take single shot match winner. Really enjoyed shooting it.
  
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Captain Bob
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #16 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 3:17pm
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I shoot 25-20 Stevens, 25-21, 25-25 and 25-35.  Breech seat in all of them and all provide the very best results with breech-seated bullets of the correct length for the twist using  rifle primers and H108/AA9.  Pistol primers work OK also but usually require a small load adjustment.  However, I do used fixed ammo with the RCBS 85 gr plain base bullet and H108/AA9 in my 25-21 Model 45 on the #44 action.  Excellent results.  I had the same experience with fixed ammo in a 25-21 factory original Hepburn using the same powder and bullet combination.  About the only thing that I have found useful for 4227 is full house jacketed bullet loads in my 22 Hornet and my Ruger Blackhawk in 30 M1 Carbine (again, close to max loads with jacketed bullets).  I gave up on 2400 years ago!  Leon


Did some testing at our shooting house today with the RCBS 25-85 CB bullet and Bulls Eye again. Have stayed with the Federal 205M primer and all loads as fixed. At a charge weight of 3.9 grains of BE and and OAL of 1.875 it seemed to come together. Velocity was running an avg. of 1347 and the ES was 19 fps. Five shot 50 yard group was just under 3/4" with very little to indacate a yaw. At 100 yards the vertical in the group was under 5/8" but there was some left and right. I plan to test this load again as there was little in the way of a tail on the impact prints at 100 yards and it was grouping. All the other loads that I tried gave signs of a heavy yaw.
  I would also like to add there was little to no fouling. The bore cleaned very easy. I always inspect the bore after a test firing for fouling with a Hawkeye bore scope before I clean.
The RCBS 25-85 CB bullet is no schuetzen bullet but it does make an OK plinker. thanks for getting back to me. Sendaro
  
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Captain Bob
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #17 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 3:19pm
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For those of you that may have interest in the 25-20SS loading. I have cast some bullets from an old Ideal bullet mold that is ajustable for bullet length, and test fired them. The first batch was cast to produce a bullet that has three grease grooves, and weighed 66.8 grains when case at 1 to 25 ratio. When testfired with IMR4227 and a Federal 205M primer there was a very wide spread in velocity, and much burned crumbs left in the rifle's bore. Powder charges of 6.8 - 8.0 grains were tested with the Federal Primer, and It was the same with all . Testing with Remington #6 1/2 primers proved even worse and use of Remington sm pistol primers were was abandon after about 15% blew through with the 7.5 grain charge. Accuracy was poor at around 4" at 100 yards, but the holes left in the target were round and showed no signs of a yaw or tipping. Next it was on to testing with AA #9 powder and the Federal 205M primer and the Ideal bullet at 66.8 grains. This powder was buring very clean and accuracy was improving but there would be about 12% of the test rounds that were fliers out of the groups 3" or so at 100 yards,but fewer powder crumbs in the bore. All cast bullets used were inspected by eye and weighed to assure quality. With the hint of the test loads nearing a reasonable amount of accuracy it appeared to me that I was heading in the right direction. Powder charges from 6.5-8.0 grains were tested and at 7.0 to 7.2 grains there seemed to be a sweet spot. However the velocities recorded were again wide spread. This suggested to me that the weight of the bullet being increased may help the powder burn more uniform. So the Ideal bullet mold was adjust to increase the weight of the bullet. As cast now it has 4 grease grooves and weighs 77.5 grains. When test fired it was very apparent that the powder was burning more throughly and accuracy improved. The bullet bullets were hitting the paper without any signs of a yaw. To be continued as the testresults come in. Sendaro
  
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Captain Bob
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #18 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 3:20pm
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Have been looking for information that will note the orginal factory loading of the early 25-20 Single Shot cartridge. I'm sure that it was with BP, and a lead bullet, but what was the weight of the bullet? At what speed was the factory claiming the load would travel? Cartridges of the World notes a factory loading of a SP bullet of 86 grains and at a velocity of 1410 fps. I'm sure that this is not the orginal factory loading but rather what may have been the last of the factory loads produced.

Has anyone ever come across a reliable report from the early days of the 25-20 SS that tells it like it was for real at that time. So many times writes tend to emblish their reports and make claims that far exceed the fact of the matter. I'm trying to find out just what this cartridge was and did before we started using barrels with the 1 in 10" twist and cast bullets of 100 grains and more with a spitzer nose profile. Would really like to know the truth about of this cartridge before the hybred of modern times came about.  Sendaro

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FYI, if you monitor e-bay molds for a short while you may find a Winchester mold or an Ideal tool for 25-20SS (or WCF) and the molds are apparently the same as Ideal #25720-86 whether marked 25-20R (WCF) all are apparently the same.  These tools are plentiful and it is a buyers market.  With luck, an Ideal 25-20SS #4 tool with sizing device can be had reasonably cheap.  8.0 gr MP5744 with this half hard bullet works for me in my Hopkins & Allen 3925.  Haven't tried it in my Stevens 44 or my tip-up yet.  So many guns, so little time.  James
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Hope this all is interesting -- Bob
  
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #19 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 3:32pm
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BTW - lesson learned
When I took this idea to John, I asked for a 14 twist like the original. In passing he mentioned that he had a 12 twist on hand, did I want to use it? No, I wanted the original twist, which he ordered and did a beautiful job. But, now I know I should have listened closer or asked why. The 14 twist pretty much limits me to 77 and 86 grain bullets. Will not handle 100 wt very well - If you are into a Maynard project with John Bly, listen very very keenly to everything he says!

Bob
  
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Reverend Al
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #20 - Apr 2nd, 2019 at 5:43pm
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Awesome!  Thanks, that gives me lots to work with ...
  

I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't quite reached my "Expiry" date yet ...
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Reverend Al
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #21 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:49pm
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Well, I just received some "goodies" for the Maynard in the mail today.  A Winchester .25-20 SS tong tool, a Winchester .25-20 SS mould, a few old hand reloading tools (a 19 grain brass BP powder measure and a small French made powder funnel), some .25-20 SS brass, and some bullets that were cast from the old Winchester mould.  I'll run the brass through my ss pin tumbler to clean them up first and measure and weigh a few of the sample bullets.  Should finally be able to get the old girl out to the range sometime soon.

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I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't quite reached my "Expiry" date yet ...
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Reverend Al
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #22 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:58pm
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Looks like this Winchester mould is for a 5 groove plain base .258" bullet of about 77 grains weight.  (A sampling of these supplied bullets were about 77.3 grains on average.)  The brass is rolling around in my ss pin wet tumbler taking a bath right now ...
  

I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't quite reached my "Expiry" date yet ...
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Reverend Al
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #23 - May 1st, 2019 at 4:33pm
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SS wet pin tumbled and dried ... came out looking pretty good!

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I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't quite reached my "Expiry" date yet ...
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coljimmy
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #24 - May 3rd, 2019 at 11:13pm
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Buffalo Arms is currently advertising 25-20SS brass for about $2.70 each.  I think it may be Aussie stuff, suggest anneal first.
James
  
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Reverend Al
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #25 - May 4th, 2019 at 1:42pm
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Had two people suggest brass sources so far (many thanks!), but of course since I live up in Lesser Kanuckistan rifle brass can't be shipped to me thanks to current ITAR regulations.  It would require an import / export permit that would be far too much trouble and far too costly to pursue for a few rounds of brass.  Still trying to scare up whatever I might find up here "in country".  I did find a fellow back in Ontario who has 105 rounds of mixed original .25-20SS brass that he would sell me for $2.50 each plus shipping, but that seems a bit stiff for 100 year old brass with mixed headstamps especially when I don't know how many times it's been fired or what condition they are in.  The search continues ...
(PS: I now have a 44 Stevens in .25-20SS on the way to me in the mail and it comes c/w a 3 die set of CH dies plus another 30 or so period rounds of brass so now I'll have two rifles in this calibre to feed ... sometimes I just can't help myself and keep digging deeper into the hole ...)
Wink
« Last Edit: May 5th, 2019 at 12:03pm by Reverend Al »  

I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't quite reached my "Expiry" date yet ...
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coljimmy
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Re: 1882 Maynard .25-20 SS ...
Reply #26 - Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:18pm
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I tried to mention this on another thread today, but the old plentiful Winchester molds and Ideal tools for the 25-20SS, and 25 WCF are the same 85 grain mold as Ideal 25720-86 (my 1926 handbook).  These Ideal tools are marked 25-20, 25-20SS for the single shot, or 25-20 R, 25-20WCF, and some 25-20M(arlin).  the latter may have a slightly different ogive, but all the same bullet cavity otherwise.  E-bay is packed with them.  Occasionally, a Single Shot tool pops up.  Patience.

James
  
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