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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) PRIMER CHOICE (Read 2062 times)
Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #15 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:34pm
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Dave, What did you shoot in the  International Benchrest Championships?
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #16 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:12pm
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Bob:

Both Times (2008 & 2013):

I shot the .32 RKS Miller DeHaas with a RKS gain twist 26" barrel that finished at 11.5:1 twist shooting a Paul Jones 236 grain Spitzer bullet with Alberta Schuetzen Lube made with 20:1 Lead:Tin alloy using H108 (WC820) powder with Remington 7 1/2 primers using a Burris 24X scope for the Scope events and using Anschutz sights for the Iron Sights events.

Nothing was weighed and I used scrap lead and waste 30% alloy from the radiator shop was used to harden the alloy.

Same equipment when I shot the 1245/1250 at Spokane in 2007.
I fine tuned the rifle the fall of 2006 and have not adjusted it since.

My 1885 Winchester HighWall used AA#9 powder but everything else was identical to what I used with the Miller.

Dave
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:25pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #17 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 6:52pm
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The following data was originally posted on Sigforum.  It shows that for a revolver cartridge, the .327 Federal, the choice of primer is critical.

I have a Ruger Single Seven in .327 Federal with the 7.5" barrel. I have found that loading the .327 Federal presents some challenges, namely dealing with large extreme velocity spreads, 150-200 fps.

Brian Pearce wrote an article about the .327 Federal in Handloader magazine, issue 294 (Feb-Mar 2015) and answered some questions I asked in issue 312 (Feb-Mar 2018) about reloading issues with the 327.

Based on his comments regarding primer testing I decided to run some comparisons of a variety of small pistol and rifle primers in the .327 Fed.

The load was 11.0 gr 2400, in Starline brass. Bullet was the Hornady 100 gr XTP. Cases were trimmed to the same length, primer pockets and flash holes uniformed, and a firm roll crimp was used.

I compared 10 different primers. Fifteen shots were fired with each primer. Velocity was measured 15 feet from the muzzle.

CCI 500
Velocity: 1451 fps
Extreme Spread: 179 fps
Standard Deviation: 60.1 fps

Federal 100
Velocity: 1379 fps
Extreme Spread: 74 fps
Standard Deviation: 20.3 fps

Federal 200
Velocity: 1352 fps
Extreme Spread: 74 fps
Standard Deviation: 21.2 fps

CCI 550
Velocity: 1443 fps
Extreme Spread: 163 fps
Standard Deviation: 56.0 fps

Federal 205M
Velocity: 1360 fps
Extreme Spread: 50 fps
Standard Deviation: 18.0 fps

Winchester WSP
Velocity: 1357 fps
Extreme Spread: 44 fps
Standard Deviation: 13.7 fps

Winchester WSR
Velocity: 1360 fps
Extreme Spread: 69 fps
Standard Deviation: 21.9 fps

CCI 400
Velocity: 1365 fps
Extreme Spread: 138 fps
Standard Deviation: 33.5 fps

CCI 450
Velocity: 1455 fps
Extreme Spread: 73 fps
Standard Deviation: 19.6 fps

CCI #41
Velocity: 1370 fps
Extreme Spread: 140 fps
Standard Deviation: 37.5 fps

Of all of these, the second to the last one, with the CCI450 gave the best results, giving the highest average velocity, with the lowest pressure signs, as determined by primer appearance and ease of case extraction along with good accuracy. One other thing I had noticed - the muzzle blast and flash often varied a lot among the same load, with some giving a much louder report and large flash, with others being not as loud and little flash. The quieter less flashy loads gave the highest velocities. All 15 of the rounds with the CCI 450 primer were like this, no big blast or flash.

The Federal 205M and Winchester WSP gave similar results.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #18 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:49pm
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Dave, What kind of equipment were you shooting against?
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #19 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:51am
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It snowed heavy last night so the shoot at Ron's  today was called off.

The Equipment from the Top 50 Shot Bench Shooters In Last 20 Years indicates some of the equipment used by competitors.
60% of the top shooters used a Miller action and 67% used a RKS barrel to shoot their top scores.

1240 Jerry Hartwig 2015 Modesto, California
        120 grain Mos 10:1 Douglas 20:1 alloy (.25-20 WCF) 20X Lyman Targetspot CPA 44 1/2 AA4100

1240 Jan Pritchard 2010 Modesto, California
        208 grain Darr 16:1 Darr (.32-40) Unertl 20X Falling Block Works AA#9

1240 Lowell D. Hamilton 1996 Raton, New Mexico (Pistol Match)
        213 grain Paul Jones 14:1 Douglas (.32 Miller) Leupold 36X Miller DeHaas AA#9

1241 Ron Yatso 2015 Tacoma, Washington
       230 grain Paul Jones 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Night Force ?X Miller DeHaas AA#9

1241 Gerald Miller 2010 Tacoma, Washington
        227 grain Paul Jones 14:1 RKS Gain (.32-40) Weaver 25X Ruger #3 H108

1241 Dave Purcell 2010 Raton, New Mexico
        220 grain Mos 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Redfield 32X Miller DeHaas H108

1241 Earl Hines 1996 Raton, New Mexico
        220 grain Brewer 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Unertl 36X Miller DeHaas H108

1242*Jeff Schultz 2011 Etna Green, Indiana.
         217 grain Borton-Darr 14:1 Shilen (.32-40) Weaver 36X Miller DeHaas ?Powder

1243 Tommy Mason 2010 Spruce Grove, Alberta
        206 grain Paul Jones 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Unertl 32X Miller DeHaas H108

1243 Jim Borton 2007 Etna Green, Indiana.
        215 grain Borton-Darr 11.5:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Sightron 36X Miller DeHaas ?Powder

1244 Rick MacHale 2016 Raton, New Mexico
        230 grain Paul Jones 12:1 RKS Gain (.32-40) Lyman 20X CPA Stevens 44 1/2 Win 296

1245*Dale Reynolds 2011 Warsaw, Indiana
         ? grain Borton-Darr 10:1 Pac-Nor (32-30 Rem) Sightron 36X Reynolds Custom Action ?Powder

1245 Dave Patterson 2007 Nine Mile Falls, Washington
        236 grain Paul Jones 11.5:1 RKS Gain (.32 RKS) Burris 24X Miller DeHaas H108

1247 Donn Hanks 2016 Phoenix, Arizona
        198 grain Mos 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Weaver 36X Hoch AA#9

1249 Jack Odor 2011 Raton, New Mexico
        207 grain Mos 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Leupold 36X Miller DeHaas AA#9

ISSA or ASSRA 50 shot scores with Scope at 200 Yards (out of 1250 points) with plain base cast bullets (no gas checks)
List of shooters who have averaged 248 or better per target over five targets shot in a row in a single shot competition.
* 5/8 of the 80 shot A
« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:21am by Schuetzendave »  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #20 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 1:45pm
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OK, thanks, I thought International Bench Rest might be another association like  NBRSA.  Huh
  

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Pentz
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #21 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:59pm
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So...As I was "called out" herein by not subscribing to the proposition that all primers are created equal, or... brand of primer does not affect accuracy.  That proposition made it over to another forum as well; here's my test:

The test: five, 5-round groups fired at 100 yards from my 1917 Winchester Mod Scope rifle, in a Boyd sporter stock with an Athlon Midas BTR Gen 2  30 mm scope, 4.5-27x.  Powder was 17.5 grains of 2400 weighed, under bullets sorted to 0.5 grain, and cast 22 bhn, from a mold made for my throat and barrel.  The rear band measures .311, the nose .302 that is engraved by the rifling at 3.35 COL when chambered.  The barrel was a virgin 1919 NOS 5-groove when I purchased it and has never seen a jacketed bullet.  The cases are LC 67, weight sorted to within 1 grain, trimmed and neck turned, with reamed flash holes; this lot has been fired 23 times with periodic torch annealing.

Primers tested were Remington 9 1/2 and 9 1/2M, Federal 210, Winchester LR, and CCI 200 seated just below flush with a Frankfort hand primer.  I did not use any large pistol primers.   I used the 27x setting, and fired over a front rest and rear bag with a very hard hold.  Weather was balmy in the low 60s, variable light breezes, and the grass was 2.5 inches high.  I was too lazy to set up my chrony, gonna have to budget a LabRadar some day.

After zeroing, five, 5-round groups were fired, the results are shown on the enclosed target.

Remington 9 1/2    - 2.20" by 1.63" group

Remington 9 1/2M - 2.65" by 1.78" group

Federal 210 -           0.88"  by 0.72" group

Winchester LR -      0.80" by 0.76" group

CCI 200 -                0.69" by 0.29" group ( I pulled the last round at 2clock)

Conclusion:  While this was not a statistician's 100 round group test, I'm not going to cast up 500 weight-sorted bullets to do so - the differences between brands of primers are obvious.  My rifle prefered Remington 9 1/2 primers when using my stash of 4759; grouping went to pot with 2400.  Clearly, I'm using CCI 200s with 2400 for now.

Yeah, it was a repeating rifle, but the effects are still apparent.
Flame away.... Roll Eyes

  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #22 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am
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Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?
  

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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #23 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:20am
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am:
Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?

If all else is truly equal and repeatable, doesn't that show how one component might affect accuracy? While it might not pan out, I know which load of the targets shown I'd want to look into fine tuning.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #24 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:52am
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PENTZ; would you please measure and post the group sizes, center to center?
Thanks;
joe b.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #25 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:15am
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Groupd center to center are posted on the target and in the text.
  

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JLouis
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #26 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:17am
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Craigd that is the approach that I have always used. Once I have found the Primer that is continually providing the best groups and fine tune it from there. One also has to be careful if changing lot numbers as they might not provide the same results as the last batch.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #27 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm
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craigd wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am:
Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?

If all else is truly equal and repeatable, doesn't that show how one component might affect accuracy? While it might not pan out, I know which load of the targets shown I'd want to look into fine tuning.

It certainly does show there is a big difference.  The others potential remain an unknown until tested.
  

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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #28 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:32pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
craigd wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am:
Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?

If all else is truly equal and repeatable, doesn't that show how one component might affect accuracy? While it might not pan out, I know which load of the targets shown I'd want to look into fine tuning.

It certainly does show there is a big difference.  The others potential remain an unknown until tested.


I think what it shows is the order in which to pick or change components.

You really have no adjustment with a primer, only replace. You can change powder charge, seating depth, to some extent bullet weight with cast.

In short you can tune a load to the primer, but you can't tune the primer to the load.

The posts that show a variety of primers can win matches support that idea.

The posts that show greater group dispersion only changing primers, support that some primer/powder combinations work better, or have a larger, more forgiving sweet spot.

  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #29 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:57pm
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I can't find any group size, one measurement, center to center of the 2 furthest-apart holes. I see -2.20" X 1.63", don't know what that means.
joe b.




Pentz wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:15am:
Groupd center to center are posted on the target and in the text.   

  
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