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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) PRIMER CHOICE (Read 1381 times)
joeb33050
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PRIMER CHOICE
Apr 24th, 2019 at 9:31am
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PRIMER CHOICE

There are a few questions.

Are small primers more accurate than large primers?

Does firing pin strike force variation vary accuracy?
We have the report of Charlie Dellís test, saying NO. Stevens 44 1/2 rifles, Iím told, have adjustable firing pin force. Testing is simple.

Does primer choice affect accuracy?
My experience and testing says NO, that either the primer sets off the powder charge, or it doesnít. If the gun fires, accuracy does not vary with primer choice.

My test results for primer choice with cast and jacketed bullets are not satisfactory, other variables are included and/or sample sizes are too small.

A search of the internet found no reports of reasonable tests. There are reports about brisance and primer energy and cup dimensions and anvil location; but the reports that I found connecting primer choice and accuracy have distressingly small sample sizes.

One of the reports counts primer choice in loads recommended by competent shooters. This seems to be a reasonable though fuzzy way to look at the question, so I did.

CBA NM primer choice, by place, (1 = first, 2 = second,Ö).

  
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joeb33050
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #1 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 9:34am
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These tables suggest that there is no much-more-accurate primer, else it would appear in greater numbers. Unfortunately, this suggestion is based on the assumption that the shooters have conducted tests, which may be/probably is, false.

It is NOT possible to prove that there is NO shooter/bullet/gun combination that shoots smaller groups with one primer than another.

If a shooter/bullet/gun combination IS found that shoots smaller groups with one primer than another, with reasonable sample size; then we can examine the better primerís characteristics and perhaps make progress toward improved accuracy.

So, Iím looking for tests and test reports, with a reasonable sample size, showing that primer A shoots more accurately than primer B. A reasonable sample size is five, 5-shot, 100-yard groups.
(All other data is on castbulletinfo, a yahoo group.)
  
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JLouis
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #2 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 10:40am
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A rifles precision is derived from the correct combination of several components coming together as a successfuly completed unit. Accuracy is soley derived by individual shooter abilities. Where one places in a match is determined by both precision and accuracy. Powder choice can determine the correct primer choice. Example Ball Powders are harder to ignite and the wrong primer choice will leave unburnt powder in the barrel. Unburnt powder can directly effect a rifles precision as can all of the individual components one chooses to use.
  
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Dellet
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #3 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 11:57am
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joeb33050 wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 9:34am:
These tables suggest that there is no much-more-accurate primer, else it would appear in greater numbers. Unfortunately, this suggestion is based on the assumption that the shooters have conducted tests, which may be/probably is, false.

It is NOT possible to prove that there is NO shooter/bullet/gun combination that shoots smaller groups with one primer than another.

If a shooter/bullet/gun combination IS found that shoots smaller groups with one primer than another, with reasonable sample size; then we can examine the better primerís characteristics and perhaps make progress toward improved accuracy.

So, Iím looking for tests and test reports, with a reasonable sample size, showing that primer A shoots more accurately than primer B. A reasonable sample size is five, 5-shot, 100-yard groups.
(All other data is on castbulletinfo, a yahoo group.)


I think you have changed your premise.

The original question was basically will changing only  primers likely change group size or point of impact. To which you suggest it will not.

Your data to back that up is showing that top shooters/loaders are able to make any primer work well.

The test I think you are looking for is where someone has taken their national match winning load that uses small primers, cut half the primer pockets to fit large.

Then used the exact same load data randomly selecting primers of as many different part numbers as possible, based only on will they fit the pocket.

Your premise is that group size and or point of impact will not change.

Is that correct, or did I miss the point?
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #4 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:03pm
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A Sharps will still go bang with a broke firing pin but accuracy will suffer greatly. Had the same thing happen with my C-sharps 85.
  
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JLouis
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #5 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 2:17pm
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How I might feel based on my own personal test results can be and should be totally useless to anyone else. Each individual should go out and do his or her own personal tests and to then decide for themselves. That way it is solely based on their own individual test results and will not be miss-leading if depending on someone else's.



  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #6 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 4:42pm
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There is no magic formula. For any primer, any bullet, any powder, any rifle, and let's not forget, any loader/shooter there will be certain combinations that work better than others. That said, it becomes fairly common knowledge that a few certain powders require a certain level of primer to work as well as they can.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #7 - Apr 25th, 2019 at 2:03pm
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Not primer specific, but 22lr shooting can show how presumably very subtle differences can make accuracy differences. One lot of supposedly identical ammo may shoot measurably different than another lot. Maybe, the easiest place to look for accuracy affecting data from primer differences might be with the jacketed bullet benchrest shooters.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #8 - Apr 25th, 2019 at 2:54pm
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Back in 1983 Connie Grimes found that a certain lot of Win 8 1/2 X 120 LR primers were of match quality. I asked that around 10,000 of these primers be purchased for me. I picked them up at the next Coors Schuetzenfest that year. I am not sure how much these primers helped my scores over the following years but mentally it was a big help. Having a inline coil main spring striker action along with the 8 1/2 X 120 primers proved to work well.
There are BR shooters here on this Forum that I would look to for information as to best primers.
KL† †
« Last Edit: Apr 25th, 2019 at 3:28pm by rafter3c »  
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JLouis
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #9 - Apr 25th, 2019 at 4:42pm
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Totally agree Ken and as BobZ noted here or in another thread there was a batch of the White Box Winchester Large Rifle primers that far exceeded anything then or since for my use.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #10 - Apr 25th, 2019 at 9:33pm
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craigd wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 2:03pm:
Not primer specific, but 22lr shooting can show how presumably very subtle differences can make accuracy differences. One lot of supposedly identical ammo may shoot measurably different than another lot. Maybe, the easiest place to look for accuracy affecting data from primer differences might be with the jacketed bullet benchrest shooters.


One of current debates with the big kids, is how much tighter your ES is when you weigh and batch your primers, and how that effects your groups at 1000 yards.

Then again when you can shoot a 1Ē group at 600 yards thereís probably a lot of subtle differences you can tell me about that I am not likely be able to experience.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #11 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 5:13am
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Rifles I have tested had smaller group sizes but slighly larger ES.

Once you have a good powder load reducing the ES will not improve accuracy.

I have found increasing or decreasing my powder load by a tenth grain will find a powder sweet spot with lower barrel vibrations that produces tighter group sizes but ussualy increases the ES by a couple of points.

So once your ES is below 10 fps difference; reducing it may not improve your accuracy.

Slight changes in powder load to reduce barrel vibrations will enable you to obtain better accuracy.

I have found there is a powder sweet spot about every 0.3 grains of powder. But then you need to find the best sweet spot which means testing higher and lower sweet spots to find the tightest group your rifle can be fine tuned to.

I do this by shooting 30 shot groups to test between loads.

And every time you change your primer then you need to retest your powder load to find the right sweet spot again.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2019 at 6:45am by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #12 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 10:59am
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Schuetzendave, your targets really could almost prove the point of sorting primers had you weighed them, or not.

Target #2 has a random high flyer, target #4 has vertical string. Both if caused by velocity, would be somewhere around 10 fps.

If targets 1,3,5 had matching primers, it would be a good indication, but those three targets are almost too good to get any useful information, other than to rule out shooter error on targets 1&2.

Maybe a longer distance shot, more of a pattern could be seen?

There has been more and more discussion in the last few years in the long range crowd and group sizes are shrinking.

Here's one persons target at 600 yards with primer weights listed and a link to the thread.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)


Why is it that people that cast and sort bullets to a 1/10 of a grain, powder to 1/100 of a grain have trouble thinking that sorting primer charges(because that's really what you are doing) might make a difference?

For a disclaimer, I probably don't shoot consistently  enough to have my targets have much meaning compared to yours. What I can say is that I shoot a reasonable amount of different disciplines, reasonably well. The resistance of one style of shooting to accept a different idea from another, seems to be the only universal truth.

I am a ways from likely being able to see the difference sorting primers can make, doesn't mean I can't learn something now about quality control and if it might matter.
  
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JLouis
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #13 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:43pm
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Sorting primers by weight is a daunting task and depending on brand one can end up with numerous various weights / lots. I once went through a thousand and ended up with four and only one with enough to get me through very few practice outings and a few matches. With that being said I have found indexing the primer and having the anvil properly set back into the cup to be the more beneficial approach and a heck of allot easier.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #14 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 2:40pm
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Niether the bullet, powder or primer were weighed.
The bullets were made from scrap lead from the metal recycler and the tin was waste 30% alloy from a radiator shop.
These targets were not shot on a calm day.
The changes of bullet hits on the target were 100% wind effects; quick changes in velocity or direction, or slight changes I did not anticipate or correct for.
I cannot place blame for shot placement; on the equipment, when shot placement was due to the shooter's call of the wind.
If I had fired in an enclosed range those slightly off shots would not be there - unless it was due to bench technique (very small chance since I was the International Benchrest Champion - twice).

After shooting over 200,00 rounds of Remington 7 1/2 primers I have found them to be exceedingly consistent and have found no need to sort them.

For accuracy I do uniform all my primer pockets and the inside flash hole as well; plus I clean out the primer pockets after each firing.

Early in my shooting career I weighed everything; but a very long shooting experience has told me: IT DOES NOT MATTER.

Commercial ammunition manufactures state any ammunition component that has less than 1% weight deviation is MATCH grade ammunition and you will not have SIGNIFICANT changes in accuracy by sorting.

To find the sweet spot your powder load has to be precise to a tenth grain.
I have selected an appropriate powder (fine small ball) that can be precisely dropped from a powder measure by developing techniques to drop powder loads without variations in weight.

I could spend all my time trying to get better groups but I rather go have fun shooting and socializing with my friends.

1/2 MOA in this game is good enough for me - I will leave it up to the younger crowd to find the improvements for their generation.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2019 at 3:16pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #15 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:33pm
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Dave, What did you shoot in the  International Benchrest Championships?
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #16 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:34pm
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Dave, What did you shoot in the  International Benchrest Championships?
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #17 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:12pm
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Bob:

Both Times (2008 & 2013):

I shot the .32 RKS Miller DeHaas with a RKS gain twist 26" barrel that finished at 11.5:1 twist shooting a Paul Jones 236 grain Spitzer bullet with Alberta Schuetzen Lube made with 20:1 Lead:Tin alloy using H108 (WC820) powder with Remington 7 1/2 primers using a Burris 24X scope for the Scope events and using Anschutz sights for the Iron Sights events.

Nothing was weighed and I used scrap lead and waste 30% alloy from the radiator shop was used to harden the alloy.

Same equipment when I shot the 1245/1250 at Spokane in 2007.
I fine tuned the rifle the fall of 2006 and have not adjusted it since.

My 1885 Winchester HighWall used AA#9 powder but everything else was identical to what I used with the Miller.

Dave
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:25pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #18 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 6:52pm
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The following data was originally posted on Sigforum.  It shows that for a revolver cartridge, the .327 Federal, the choice of primer is critical.

I have a Ruger Single Seven in .327 Federal with the 7.5" barrel. I have found that loading the .327 Federal presents some challenges, namely dealing with large extreme velocity spreads, 150-200 fps.

Brian Pearce wrote an article about the .327 Federal in Handloader magazine, issue 294 (Feb-Mar 2015) and answered some questions I asked in issue 312 (Feb-Mar 2018) about reloading issues with the 327.

Based on his comments regarding primer testing I decided to run some comparisons of a variety of small pistol and rifle primers in the .327 Fed.

The load was 11.0 gr 2400, in Starline brass. Bullet was the Hornady 100 gr XTP. Cases were trimmed to the same length, primer pockets and flash holes uniformed, and a firm roll crimp was used.

I compared 10 different primers. Fifteen shots were fired with each primer. Velocity was measured 15 feet from the muzzle.

CCI 500
Velocity: 1451 fps
Extreme Spread: 179 fps
Standard Deviation: 60.1 fps

Federal 100
Velocity: 1379 fps
Extreme Spread: 74 fps
Standard Deviation: 20.3 fps

Federal 200
Velocity: 1352 fps
Extreme Spread: 74 fps
Standard Deviation: 21.2 fps

CCI 550
Velocity: 1443 fps
Extreme Spread: 163 fps
Standard Deviation: 56.0 fps

Federal 205M
Velocity: 1360 fps
Extreme Spread: 50 fps
Standard Deviation: 18.0 fps

Winchester WSP
Velocity: 1357 fps
Extreme Spread: 44 fps
Standard Deviation: 13.7 fps

Winchester WSR
Velocity: 1360 fps
Extreme Spread: 69 fps
Standard Deviation: 21.9 fps

CCI 400
Velocity: 1365 fps
Extreme Spread: 138 fps
Standard Deviation: 33.5 fps

CCI 450
Velocity: 1455 fps
Extreme Spread: 73 fps
Standard Deviation: 19.6 fps

CCI #41
Velocity: 1370 fps
Extreme Spread: 140 fps
Standard Deviation: 37.5 fps

Of all of these, the second to the last one, with the CCI450 gave the best results, giving the highest average velocity, with the lowest pressure signs, as determined by primer appearance and ease of case extraction along with good accuracy. One other thing I had noticed - the muzzle blast and flash often varied a lot among the same load, with some giving a much louder report and large flash, with others being not as loud and little flash. The quieter less flashy loads gave the highest velocities. All 15 of the rounds with the CCI 450 primer were like this, no big blast or flash.

The Federal 205M and Winchester WSP gave similar results.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #19 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:49pm
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Dave, What kind of equipment were you shooting against?
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #20 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:51am
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It snowed heavy last night so the shoot at Ron's† today was called off.

The Equipment from the Top 50 Shot Bench Shooters In Last 20 Years indicates some of the equipment used by competitors.
60% of the top shooters used a Miller action and 67% used a RKS barrel to shoot their top scores.

1240 Jerry Hartwig 2015 Modesto, California
† †† †† 120 grain Mos 10:1 Douglas 20:1 alloy (.25-20 WCF) 20X Lyman Targetspot CPA 44 1/2 AA4100

1240 Jan Pritchard 2010 Modesto, California
† †† †† 208 grain Darr 16:1 Darr (.32-40) Unertl 20X Falling Block Works AA#9

1240 Lowell D. Hamilton 1996 Raton, New Mexico (Pistol Match)
† †† †† 213 grain Paul Jones 14:1 Douglas (.32 Miller) Leupold 36X Miller DeHaas AA#9

1241 Ron Yatso 2015 Tacoma, Washington
† †† † 230 grain Paul Jones 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Night Force ?X Miller DeHaas AA#9

1241 Gerald Miller 2010 Tacoma, Washington
† †† †† 227 grain Paul Jones 14:1 RKS Gain (.32-40) Weaver 25X Ruger #3 H108

1241 Dave Purcell 2010 Raton, New Mexico
† †† †† 220 grain Mos 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Redfield 32X Miller DeHaas H108

1241 Earl Hines 1996 Raton, New Mexico
† †† †† 220 grain Brewer 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Unertl 36X Miller DeHaas H108

1242*Jeff Schultz 2011 Etna Green, Indiana.
† †† †† †217 grain Borton-Darr 14:1 Shilen (.32-40) Weaver 36X Miller DeHaas ?Powder

1243 Tommy Mason 2010 Spruce Grove, Alberta
† †† †† 206 grain Paul Jones 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Unertl 32X Miller DeHaas H108

1243 Jim Borton 2007 Etna Green, Indiana.
† †† †† 215 grain Borton-Darr 11.5:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Sightron 36X Miller DeHaas ?Powder

1244 Rick MacHale 2016 Raton, New Mexico
† †† †† 230 grain Paul Jones 12:1 RKS Gain (.32-40) Lyman 20X CPA Stevens 44 1/2 Win 296

1245*Dale Reynolds 2011 Warsaw, Indiana
† †† †† †? grain Borton-Darr 10:1 Pac-Nor (32-30 Rem) Sightron 36X Reynolds Custom Action ?Powder

1245 Dave Patterson 2007 Nine Mile Falls, Washington
† †† †† 236 grain Paul Jones 11.5:1 RKS Gain (.32 RKS) Burris 24X Miller DeHaas H108

1247 Donn Hanks 2016 Phoenix, Arizona
† †† †† 198 grain Mos 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Weaver 36X Hoch AA#9

1249 Jack Odor 2011 Raton, New Mexico
† †† †† 207 grain Mos 14:1 RKS Gain (.32 MS) Leupold 36X Miller DeHaas AA#9

ISSA or ASSRA 50 shot scores with Scope at 200 Yards (out of 1250 points) with plain base cast bullets (no gas checks)
List of shooters who have averaged 248 or better per target over five targets shot in a row in a single shot competition.
* 5/8 of the 80 shot A
« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:21am by Schuetzendave »  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #21 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 1:45pm
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OK, thanks, I thought International Bench Rest might be another association like  NBRSA.  Huh
  

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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #22 - Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:59pm
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So...As I was "called out" herein by not subscribing to the proposition that all primers are created equal, or... brand of primer does not affect accuracy.  That proposition made it over to another forum as well; here's my test:

The test: five, 5-round groups fired at 100 yards from my 1917 Winchester Mod Scope rifle, in a Boyd sporter stock with an Athlon Midas BTR Gen 2  30 mm scope, 4.5-27x.  Powder was 17.5 grains of 2400 weighed, under bullets sorted to 0.5 grain, and cast 22 bhn, from a mold made for my throat and barrel.  The rear band measures .311, the nose .302 that is engraved by the rifling at 3.35 COL when chambered.  The barrel was a virgin 1919 NOS 5-groove when I purchased it and has never seen a jacketed bullet.  The cases are LC 67, weight sorted to within 1 grain, trimmed and neck turned, with reamed flash holes; this lot has been fired 23 times with periodic torch annealing.

Primers tested were Remington 9 1/2 and 9 1/2M, Federal 210, Winchester LR, and CCI 200 seated just below flush with a Frankfort hand primer.  I did not use any large pistol primers.   I used the 27x setting, and fired over a front rest and rear bag with a very hard hold.  Weather was balmy in the low 60s, variable light breezes, and the grass was 2.5 inches high.  I was too lazy to set up my chrony, gonna have to budget a LabRadar some day.

After zeroing, five, 5-round groups were fired, the results are shown on the enclosed target.

Remington 9 1/2    - 2.20" by 1.63" group

Remington 9 1/2M - 2.65" by 1.78" group

Federal 210 -           0.88"  by 0.72" group

Winchester LR -      0.80" by 0.76" group

CCI 200 -                0.69" by 0.29" group ( I pulled the last round at 2clock)

Conclusion:  While this was not a statistician's 100 round group test, I'm not going to cast up 500 weight-sorted bullets to do so - the differences between brands of primers are obvious.  My rifle prefered Remington 9 1/2 primers when using my stash of 4759; grouping went to pot with 2400.  Clearly, I'm using CCI 200s with 2400 for now.

Yeah, it was a repeating rifle, but the effects are still apparent.
Flame away.... Roll Eyes

  

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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #23 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am
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Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?
  

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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #24 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:20am
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am:
Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?

If all else is truly equal and repeatable, doesn't that show how one component might affect accuracy? While it might not pan out, I know which load of the targets shown I'd want to look into fine tuning.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #25 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:52am
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PENTZ; would you please measure and post the group sizes, center to center?
Thanks;
joe b.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #26 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:15am
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Groupd center to center are posted on the target and in the text.
  

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Reply #27 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:17am
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Craigd that is the approach that I have always used. Once I have found the Primer that is continually providing the best groups and fine tune it from there. One also has to be careful if changing lot numbers as they might not provide the same results as the last batch.
  
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #28 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm
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craigd wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am:
Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?

If all else is truly equal and repeatable, doesn't that show how one component might affect accuracy? While it might not pan out, I know which load of the targets shown I'd want to look into fine tuning.

It certainly does show there is a big difference.  The others potential remain an unknown until tested.
  

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Dellet
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #29 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:32pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
craigd wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:02am:
Does that primer test really prove anything if the load is not tuned for each primer?

If all else is truly equal and repeatable, doesn't that show how one component might affect accuracy? While it might not pan out, I know which load of the targets shown I'd want to look into fine tuning.

It certainly does show there is a big difference.† The others potential remain an unknown until tested.


I think what it shows is the order in which to pick or change components.

You really have no adjustment with a primer, only replace. You can change powder charge, seating depth, to some extent bullet weight with cast.

In short you can tune a load to the primer, but you can't tune the primer to the load.

The posts that show a variety of primers can win matches support that idea.

The posts that show greater group dispersion only changing primers, support that some primer/powder combinations work better, or have a larger, more forgiving sweet spot.

  
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joeb33050
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Re: PRIMER CHOICE
Reply #30 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:57pm
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I can't find any group size, one measurement, center to center of the 2 furthest-apart holes. I see -2.20" X 1.63", don't know what that means.
joe b.




Pentz wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:15am:
Groupd center to center are posted on the target and in the text.† †

  
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