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Bulseyetom
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Second try at breech seating
Apr 26th, 2019 at 4:20pm
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Took my original 32/40 HiWall and my FBW in 25/20 SS to the range today to see how I have improved after making some modifications after posting my results for the first try and getting numerous suggestions.  To begin with on the 32/40, I flared the brass so that I could feel resistance chambering.  An old center punch was the tool of choice!  Grin  Secondly, I bumped the charge to 14.5 grains of IMR 4227 from the first loads at 14.0.  Most important, I mounted a Burris 4-16 so I could see the target better at 100 yards for load development.  All shots were with the forearm resting on the bag this time.  The 10 shot group was using 5 different pieces of brass but with the bullet oriented with the index mark up.  The second group was shot using the same piece of brass and was just a 5 shot group.  I am not sure why it has more vertical spread except maybe the bore was pretty dirty by then?  I did not take my flags again today but intend to next time.  I also will spend more time sighting in so that the group is the center of my aiming point.  I then shot a few shots with the 25/20 which has a bench rest forearm.  Sticking with the load of 8.0 grains of IMR 4227 that I used last week and shooting at 100 yards I got groups similar to the one pictured in the third photo.  I am sure that the wind took one shot as it was picking up by then.  Outside of using flags next week, I am not sure what to do different.  What powders that are available work best in the 32/40? What range of charges of IMR 4227 should I try?  I am using bought 170 gr tapered bullets and am about to spring for a mold and furnace.  Thanks for all your help.  Tom
  
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OLD TUCK
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #1 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 5:39pm
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Bullseytom, try seating the bullet and loading the cartridge behind. And then
Standing the Rifle up vertically and gently "BUMP" it from under the receiver
to settle the powder charge to the bottom of the cartridge. And then bring the rifle down into your rest system carefully to not disturb the powder location.
I went through this process some years ago with a 32-40 and a 38-55 on the same day. 32-40 Load was 15.5 Grs 4759, and in the 38-55 18.5 Grs 4759. all at 200 yds. from a rest. Both loads shot good a little over 1.0" but the 38-55 was nice and round. The 32-40 showed some Vertical stringing until I started bumping the powder back. and then it got nice and round like the 38-55. HTH Regards, FITZ. OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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calledflyer
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #2 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 6:03pm
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Fitz has good advice here. Those are good things to try.
Personallly, I think a little load tinkering may- or may not make it better. But, I have found many high walls are clumsy with normal stock when shot from rest. They tend to be willing to 'dip' the muzzle when the shot goes off. So, maybe getting it out onto barrel where it has a better for and aft balance (more stabil, I think). This may not be on the so-called 'sweet spot', but it'll likely help you be consistent without wrestling with your rifle. Good luck, and don't give up. Ever.
  

happily ignored by J. "Sonny" Louis
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #3 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 8:08pm
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Thanks guys.  I worked all afternoon it seems on getting my 25/20 SS push seater so it is easier to use in the FBW.  The chamber is really tight so when I get the inside of the brass so my bullet slides in then the seater does not want to go all the way into the chamber very easy.  The brass is so thin that it is hard without proper tools to outside turn the brass but tomorrow I am going to get out my Hornady neck turning tool as I have a 25 caliber mandrel for it.  One thing about it I am busy enough to keep out of trouble with my better half!   Cheesy  Tom
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #4 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:20pm
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Wind will easily move a bullet out to the 23 or 22 ring.
When testing it is essential to properly call the wind and shoot on the same wind condition.
Without taking the wind out of the equation; you do not know if you have improved your accuracy.
You may be wasting your time; if you test loads without wind flags, unless it is very calm.
Stringing will occur from different velocities of head and tail winds.
Bullets will also go up and down as left or right wind velocities change.
Wind flags are an absolute must when testing.

Powder considerations:

12.4 grains of AA#9, AA4100, H108, WC820 or MP300 in the 32-40 for about 1,500 fps.
9.0 grains of AA#9, AA4100, H108, WC820 or MP300 in the 25-20 for about 1,600 fps.

I trust you are familiar with the attached chart that indicates what happens to a bullet's trajectory as wind direction changes for a right hand twist barrel.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:42pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #5 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:38pm
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Accuracy Arms site says 4100 is accurate metering.  Maybe I should give it a try.  I have never used any of the above powders but the original owner of the 25/20 used it.  Like the soft swirl chocolate ice cream at the corner market, I see it is no longer available.  Tom
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #6 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:49pm
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I was referring to H108 not available.  Yes I learned reading flags when shooting a 6ppc off of the bench.  I always found when shooting benchrest my groups were much smaller if I could shoot my sighters in the prevailing condition and not hope to shoot in a calm as the calms were always few and far between!  Once I started to shoot my 5 for group I hated to go back to the sighter to see where the newest condition was going to push the bullet.  I never got good at holding onto the wind.  Tom
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #7 - Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:52pm
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I always use the small ball powders since they meter accurately and provide the tenth grain accuracy I need to find the right POWDER sweet spot for my rifle that has minimal barrel vibrations and much smaller groups.

Remember there is a sweet spot about every 0.3 grains of powder but it takes 30 shot groups to clearly define which load is better when you test.

The sweet spot will have significantly fewer flyers outside the center hole of the 30 shot group.

Sometimes the powder lots change and we have found out that they may be manufactured in different Countries.
For the powders listed above the lots from Canada, Australia and Belgium have been slightly better than the lots made in other Countries.

The poorer lots do not have all the powder balls of the same size.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2019 at 10:09pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #8 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:15am
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Just curious - given as many variables as possible are the same, does breech or fixed loads require more powder?  Can one type be fired in another, e.g., fixed in BL chamber, with any degree of accuracy?  Or am I mixing apples and oranges... or who cares?
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #9 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:33am
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When you breech seat; the bullet is further forward, which means you have a larger chamber which requires a hair more powder.

You can interchange your powder loads between fixed cases and breech seating; however you will still need to fine tune the load to find the best POWDER sweet spot.

When we breech seat we may fine tune the load with an adjustable seater (modify chamber capacity) instead of adjusting the powder load to find the sweet spot.

I always adjust my powder first to find the sweet spot and then fine tune it with the adjustable seater to further refine it.

For precision shooters it does help improve accuracy.
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:38am by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #10 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:55am
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Thanks Dave,

And part 2...

Can one type be fired in another, e.g., fixed in BL chamber, with any degree of accuracy?  Or am I mixing apples and oranges?
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #11 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:25pm
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All fixed cartridge cases can be breech seated; however some custom designed breech seating cases may not be able to be fired as fixed ammunition.

These custom designed breech seated cartridges may have a mouth that is too wide to seat a bullet into the mouth or may have a mouth that is too tapered to properly align a bullet (i.e. .25 RKS uses the same case that is used for the .32 RKS) and cannot be fired as fixed ammunition.

For the most part the chamber is reamed for a fixed cartridge and a bullet is breech seated guiding the bullet in with the existing chamber leade.

Some traditional rifles had virtually no leade so a tapered bullet may be selected to easily breech seat that rifle; and can also be used to make fixed ammunition.

There really is no major difference in a chamber design for use with fixed ammunition versus breech seating.

However there is a difference in the design of chambers for paper patching versus using grease groove bullets.

Generally the rifles were originally designed to fire fixed ammunition but with breech seating we align a bullet perfectly inline in the bore to obtain accuracy from the better alignment; plus better sealing of the bullet, which reduces gases jumping around the bullet as it jumps across a leade.
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:42pm by Schuetzendave »  
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craigd
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #12 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:12pm
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Bulseyetom wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 4:20pm:
....I also will spend more time sighting in so that the group is the center of my aiming point....

Only a thought, but for load developing, I like to place the group well off of the aiming point. I think with 16x at a hundred yards, a single .32 bullet hole, let alone a few would chew up your aim point and might affect one part of consistency.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Second try at breech seating
Reply #13 - Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:59pm
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Yup You loose your point of aim after a few shots.
But my goal is to get rid of all of the white and stay within the 24 ring.
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:32pm by Schuetzendave »  
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