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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE (Read 2282 times)
joeb33050
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SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
May 1st, 2019 at 6:48am
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SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
     Warren page wrote that the externally adjustable scopes hinder accuracy.
     I have been shooting my BSA Martini, 50 yards, 5-shot groups, GECO Semi-Automatic ammunition, with three different scopes. Here are the records:
30X Lyman STS, 30 groups, .534” average group size
Tasco # 705 Externally Adjustable, 6-18, 40 groups, .481” average group size
Weaver T36, 80 groups, .429” average group size
     While that Lyman/Unertl/Fecker/Litschert/Davis scope may look good on a rifle, maybe it is causing some inaccuracy.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #1 - May 1st, 2019 at 12:31pm
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Interesting JB but, I think we need more data. Please do the test again, to confirm your single test data.

I think 130 shots total, per scope test, would validate your testing.

Data, we need more data.

Frank
  

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Rebel
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #2 - May 1st, 2019 at 1:34pm
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so many variables could cause this, but interesting data.
Frank makes a good point.

Aaron
  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence.
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Schuetzendave
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #3 - May 1st, 2019 at 1:51pm
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For comparisons Eley has a lot analyser to indicate the performance of their Tenex ammo.

They assess ten shot groups (20 groups) and 50 shot groups (four shot groups) shot at 50 meters in four different rifles.

The group sizes for my lot 1016-08227:
- ranged from .51" to .69" for the 10 shot groups
- ranged from .69" to .76" for the 50 shot groups

It is hard to compare five shot group sizes to 10 shot group sizes but indications you do not appear to be loosing any accuracy with your externally adjustable scope.
« Last Edit: May 1st, 2019 at 7:18pm by Schuetzendave »  
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LONG RANGE
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #4 - May 1st, 2019 at 1:52pm
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I don't care. I like my Unertls and Lyman STS. I will not give them up. Redfield made internal adj scopes to compete with them and they did not succeed. The were of course the 3200 & 6400.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #5 - May 1st, 2019 at 4:13pm
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What test data did Warren Page provide?
  

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joeb33050
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2019 at 5:00pm
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Did I mention that the ammo I used was GECO Semi Automatic, at $23/brick?  That's under a nickel a shot. Ammoseek. Eley Tenex is $149 a brick. That's right around 30 cents a shot. Does your rifle shoot groups 1/6 the size of mine?


Schuetzendave wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 1:51pm:
For comparisons Eley has a lot analyser to indicated the performance of their Tenex ammo.

They assess ten shot groups (20 groups) and 50 shot groups (four shot groups) shot at 50 meters in four different rifles.

The group sizes for my lot 1016-08227:
- ranged from .51" to .69" for the 10 shot groups
- ranged from .69" to .76" for the 50 shot groups

It is hard to compare five shot group sizes to 10 shot group sizes but indications you do not appear to be loosing any accuracy with your externally adjustable scope.

  
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oneatatime
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #7 - May 1st, 2019 at 5:05pm
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22s are very picky about their ammo. Price is no guarantee on the results in any one rifle.
  
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boats
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #8 - May 1st, 2019 at 6:06pm
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External adjustment scopes mechanical repeatability can be verified with test indicators. Everything is accessible, elevation windage return to battery . 

Internal adjustment scopes adjustments are hidden by the external tube, only way to test repeatability is on target. Test  one you include ammunition and condition variables masking the scopes mechanical precision.

Only way I would believe internals would out perform externals is long run test, same rifle, same ammunition, machine rest indoors. Anything less is opinion not fact. 

I have Warren Pages book will pull it out and see what he has to say. 

Boats
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #9 - May 1st, 2019 at 6:10pm
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Did I mention that the ammo I used was GECO Semi Automatic, at $23/brick?  That's under a nickel a shot. Ammoseek. Eley Tenex is $149 a brick. That's right around 30 cents a shot. Does your rifle shoot groups 1/6 the size of mine?

  So you are saying your test is statistically meaningless?

  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #10 - May 1st, 2019 at 7:25pm
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When I have done 5 group versus 10 group testing of rimfire you always find a flyer outside the group when you fire a larger sample.

I have found 5 shot groups are usually at least half the size of 10 shot groups with rimfire ammo.

In low cost ammo there is frequently a flyer in every 10 shots - but most of the five shot groups will cluster very well.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #11 - May 2nd, 2019 at 2:01am
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The problem with a test like this is none of the scopes were likely to have been checked in any way, at least it wasn’t mentioned.

The first thing would be to verify and document how much the reticles move in each scope, then you have something to compare. Shooting groups really won’t tell you anything of value about the scope itself unless you have a standard to compare all of them to.

Here is one such study and what it really proves is that every scope is an individual. You really can’t say this type or brand is any better, it can give an idea of who has better quality control and tends to send less junk out the door.

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joeb33050
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #12 - May 2nd, 2019 at 5:56am
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In my copy the comments are on pages 112-114.
joe b,

I have Warren Pages book will pull it out and see what he has to say. 

Boats [/quote]
  
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joeb33050
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #13 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:04am
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10-shot groups will average 1.24 times the size of 5-shot groups. As always, happy to send the calculations.

It is hard to compare five shot group sizes to 10 shot group sizes but indications you do not appear to be loosing any accuracy with your externally adjustable scope. [/quote]
  
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joeb33050
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #14 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:08am
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This was not a test, merely a sum of my records. Yesterday was my first match in years, 22RF/50 yards. Came in 3rd of 17 shooters. Several marveled at the GECO accuracy. 

[quote author=746F646464656C6C65000 link=1556707688/11#11 date=1556776890]The problem with a test like this is none of the scopes were likely to have been checked in any way, at least it wasn’t mentioned.
  
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