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joeb33050
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SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
May 1st, 2019 at 6:48am
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SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
     Warren page wrote that the externally adjustable scopes hinder accuracy.
     I have been shooting my BSA Martini, 50 yards, 5-shot groups, GECO Semi-Automatic ammunition, with three different scopes. Here are the records:
30X Lyman STS, 30 groups, .534” average group size
Tasco # 705 Externally Adjustable, 6-18, 40 groups, .481” average group size
Weaver T36, 80 groups, .429” average group size
     While that Lyman/Unertl/Fecker/Litschert/Davis scope may look good on a rifle, maybe it is causing some inaccuracy.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #1 - May 1st, 2019 at 12:31pm
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Interesting JB but, I think we need more data. Please do the test again, to confirm your single test data.

I think 130 shots total, per scope test, would validate your testing.

Data, we need more data.

Frank
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #2 - May 1st, 2019 at 1:34pm
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so many variables could cause this, but interesting data.
Frank makes a good point.

Aaron
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #3 - May 1st, 2019 at 1:51pm
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For comparisons Eley has a lot analyser to indicate the performance of their Tenex ammo.

They assess ten shot groups (20 groups) and 50 shot groups (four shot groups) shot at 50 meters in four different rifles.

The group sizes for my lot 1016-08227:
- ranged from .51" to .69" for the 10 shot groups
- ranged from .69" to .76" for the 50 shot groups

It is hard to compare five shot group sizes to 10 shot group sizes but indications you do not appear to be loosing any accuracy with your externally adjustable scope.
« Last Edit: May 1st, 2019 at 7:18pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #4 - May 1st, 2019 at 1:52pm
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I don't care. I like my Unertls and Lyman STS. I will not give them up. Redfield made internal adj scopes to compete with them and they did not succeed. The were of course the 3200 & 6400.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #5 - May 1st, 2019 at 4:13pm
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What test data did Warren Page provide?
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2019 at 5:00pm
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Did I mention that the ammo I used was GECO Semi Automatic, at $23/brick?  That's under a nickel a shot. Ammoseek. Eley Tenex is $149 a brick. That's right around 30 cents a shot. Does your rifle shoot groups 1/6 the size of mine?


Schuetzendave wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 1:51pm:
For comparisons Eley has a lot analyser to indicated the performance of their Tenex ammo.

They assess ten shot groups (20 groups) and 50 shot groups (four shot groups) shot at 50 meters in four different rifles.

The group sizes for my lot 1016-08227:
- ranged from .51" to .69" for the 10 shot groups
- ranged from .69" to .76" for the 50 shot groups

It is hard to compare five shot group sizes to 10 shot group sizes but indications you do not appear to be loosing any accuracy with your externally adjustable scope.

  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #7 - May 1st, 2019 at 5:05pm
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22s are very picky about their ammo. Price is no guarantee on the results in any one rifle.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #8 - May 1st, 2019 at 6:06pm
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External adjustment scopes mechanical repeatability can be verified with test indicators. Everything is accessible, elevation windage return to battery . 

Internal adjustment scopes adjustments are hidden by the external tube, only way to test repeatability is on target. Test  one you include ammunition and condition variables masking the scopes mechanical precision.

Only way I would believe internals would out perform externals is long run test, same rifle, same ammunition, machine rest indoors. Anything less is opinion not fact. 

I have Warren Pages book will pull it out and see what he has to say. 

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #9 - May 1st, 2019 at 6:10pm
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Did I mention that the ammo I used was GECO Semi Automatic, at $23/brick?  That's under a nickel a shot. Ammoseek. Eley Tenex is $149 a brick. That's right around 30 cents a shot. Does your rifle shoot groups 1/6 the size of mine?

  So you are saying your test is statistically meaningless?

  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #10 - May 1st, 2019 at 7:25pm
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When I have done 5 group versus 10 group testing of rimfire you always find a flyer outside the group when you fire a larger sample.

I have found 5 shot groups are usually at least half the size of 10 shot groups with rimfire ammo.

In low cost ammo there is frequently a flyer in every 10 shots - but most of the five shot groups will cluster very well.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #11 - May 2nd, 2019 at 2:01am
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The problem with a test like this is none of the scopes were likely to have been checked in any way, at least it wasn’t mentioned.

The first thing would be to verify and document how much the reticles move in each scope, then you have something to compare. Shooting groups really won’t tell you anything of value about the scope itself unless you have a standard to compare all of them to.

Here is one such study and what it really proves is that every scope is an individual. You really can’t say this type or brand is any better, it can give an idea of who has better quality control and tends to send less junk out the door.

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #12 - May 2nd, 2019 at 5:56am
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In my copy the comments are on pages 112-114.
joe b,

I have Warren Pages book will pull it out and see what he has to say. 

Boats [/quote]
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #13 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:04am
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10-shot groups will average 1.24 times the size of 5-shot groups. As always, happy to send the calculations.

It is hard to compare five shot group sizes to 10 shot group sizes but indications you do not appear to be loosing any accuracy with your externally adjustable scope. [/quote]
  
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joeb33050
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #14 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:08am
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This was not a test, merely a sum of my records. Yesterday was my first match in years, 22RF/50 yards. Came in 3rd of 17 shooters. Several marveled at the GECO accuracy. 

[quote author=746F646464656C6C65000 link=1556707688/11#11 date=1556776890]The problem with a test like this is none of the scopes were likely to have been checked in any way, at least it wasn’t mentioned.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #15 - May 2nd, 2019 at 7:38am
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Joe glad you are back, give us something to think about.

Boats
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #16 - May 2nd, 2019 at 10:55am
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joeb33050 wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 6:08am:
This was not a test, merely a sum of my records. Yesterday was my first match in years, 22RF/50 yards. Came in 3rd of 17 shooters. Several marveled at the GECO accuracy. 

[quote author=746F646464656C6C65000 link=1556707688/11#11 date=1556776890]The problem with a test like this is none of the scopes were likely to have been checked in any way, at least it wasn’t mentioned.


Not a bad finish at all, congratulations on the comeback.

I'm a bit surprised at 30x plus at fifty yards, Is that what you normally use at that short of distance?
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #17 - May 2nd, 2019 at 11:21am
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the BR50 crowd shoot at 50 yards and use very high powered scopes on their 22s
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #18 - May 2nd, 2019 at 11:38am
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beltfed wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 11:21am:
the BR50 crowd shoot at 50 yards and use very high powered scopes on their 22s
beltfed/arnie


If I do that, the sight picture looks like I either have parkinsons or the time I told the cute young gal at the coffee shop who wanted me to try a new flavor, to make it like she drinks it. Five shots did not mean what I thought it meant.  Cheesy That's about how I looked.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUST
Reply #19 - May 2nd, 2019 at 12:33pm
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International Small-bore Prone is Shot at 50 meters. It’s a good distance to test skill with some, not too much,  condition interference.  100 conditions play a larger part. American SB prone any sight is 50 & 100. High power Scopes allow spotting through the rifles scope, no need to come out of position and use a spotting scope.

200 Rimfire is a gamble that can be in the competitors favor if they wait out wind changes. Good spotting scope let’s you read mirage, best wind indicator possible.   Most of the shorter distance competitions have limited time relays you can’t wait or have much time to read mirage.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #20 - May 2nd, 2019 at 7:35pm
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This would be interesting if I somehow placed a lot of import on a 50 year old opinion.
On a serious note if there were a sniff of validity to this why, just a few years ago, was there a fair trend for the most precise guns on the planet(centerfire benchrest guns) to freeze many scopes to convert them to external adjustment systems ?
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #21 - May 2nd, 2019 at 7:53pm
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I remember one  of the NBRSA guys at Tacoma showing me his hard mounted scope.  Any adjustment had to be made by reworking the single piece base.
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #22 - May 2nd, 2019 at 8:15pm
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BR50 Target was shot with a 32X scope with a very fine crosshair which allows you to pick different spots within the bulls eye to aim at.

Holding off to compensate for wind changes is essential since you have so little time you cannot wait for a wind condition to return.

Shooting BR50 really teaches you how to call and adjust for wind changes.
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2019 at 8:22pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #23 - May 2nd, 2019 at 8:52pm
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How many flags do you put out for 50 yds., Dave?
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #24 - May 2nd, 2019 at 10:53pm
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Bob:

Three flags out to 50 yards, five flags to 100 yards, and six to seven flags out to 200 yards all in a perfect line so you can read them all at once.

As you know this confuses everyone trying to figure out which one I consider to be the most important.

I could tell you the flags that are most important at Spokane depending if you are shooting on the left, middle or right side of the range and depending on where the wind is coming from.
But I do not want to handicap the Canadian Team.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2019 at 11:00pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #25 - May 3rd, 2019 at 9:05am
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Tim-S scopes were frozen to eliminate point of impact changes a common problem in the day even with the more expensive scopes. Most manufacturer's have a pretty good handle on it these days. You brought up a very good point and one that is often times overlooked.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #26 - May 3rd, 2019 at 3:13pm
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JLouis wrote on May 3rd, 2019 at 9:05am:
Tim-S scopes were frozen to eliminate point of impact changes a common problem in the day even with the more expensive scopes. Most manufacturer's have a pretty good handle on it these days. You brought up a very good point and one that is often times overlooked.


Yes. While I framed it in the form of a question, it was more of a rhetorical one.
In point of fact this development took place right after Leupold came to market with their 35x,40x & 45x LCS series, the first generation of which were plagued with POI issues which were largely corrected in the 2nd but no retrofit for the early ones. The third gen had further improvement and they’re pretty reliable now.
This was about the time the legendary March 40’s hit the US at almost $2000 and then the legendary Niteforce’s.
We now have unbelievable optics available(for a price).
I am just finalizing a new build and cannot wait to mount my new March 48X high master, the latest and greatest offering from Japan.

There are still several rimfire BR guys shooting frozen Leuy’s, most of them seemingly in the Brackney type mount which utilizes micrometer barrel windage and elevation type adjustments.

IMHO the best oem external adjustment scopes ever made were the Unertl BV 20’s and the few Remington’s made by Unertl.
« Last Edit: May 3rd, 2019 at 3:20pm by tim_s »  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #27 - May 3rd, 2019 at 8:53pm
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Totally agree and familiar with everything you pointed out and thanks for sharing TimS.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #28 - May 6th, 2019 at 12:58pm
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joeb33050 wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 6:48am:
SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
     Warren page wrote that the externally adjustable scopes hinder accuracy.
     I have been shooting my BSA Martini, 50 yards, 5-shot groups, GECO Semi-Automatic ammunition, with three different scopes. Here are the records:
30X Lyman STS, 30 groups, .534” average group size
Tasco # 705 Externally Adjustable, 6-18, 40 groups, .481” average group size
Weaver T36, 80 groups, .429” average group size
     While that Lyman/Unertl/Fecker/Litschert/Davis scope may look good on a rifle, maybe it is causing some inaccuracy.


Two things to keep in mind when switching scopes:
1) Different length and weight scopes affect the harmonics of a rifle
2) Were all the scopes precisely adjusted to minimize parallax for the distance?  And even if so than there may still be some parallax affect from scope to scope.

Wayne
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #29 - May 6th, 2019 at 4:51pm
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TIM-S   Just to keep things accurate, Remington scopes were made by Remington, not Unertl. It is a common mistake. They were developed by Mike Walker, and built in house. The early scopes used Unertl mounts which caused some of the confusion. At a later date Remington made their own mounts. They were quite good scopes, but came at a time when internally adjusted and receiver mounted scopes were becoming available, such as Wally Seibert power boosted Lyman perma-center 20x scopes. Some very good benchrest shooters have gone back to using some of those scopes. I don't believe that there is any question that externally adjusted scopes are not the equal of modern internally adjusted scopes, but to my eye, they look totaly out of place on a fine old single shot rifle, and I am more than willing to give up a little to keep the old scopes on board.  Krag                     As a side note I have both a 20x and later 24x Remington scope, but they are all but unusable on a single shot rifle as they were designed to be receiver mounted and it is difficult to get them mounted on the barrel with adequate eye relief, especially for offhand use.
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #30 - May 8th, 2019 at 11:17pm
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rkba2nd wrote on May 6th, 2019 at 4:51pm:
TIM-S   Just to keep things accurate, Remington scopes were made by Remington, not Unertl. It is a common mistake. They were developed by Mike Walker, and built in house. The early scopes used Unertl mounts which caused some of the confusion. At a later date Remington made their own mounts. They were quite good scopes, but came at a time when internally adjusted and receiver mounted scopes were becoming available, such as Wally Seibert power boosted Lyman perma-center 20x scopes. Some very good benchrest shooters have gone back to using some of those scopes. I don't believe that there is any question that externally adjusted scopes are not the equal of modern internally adjusted scopes, but to my eye, they look totaly out of place on a fine old single shot rifle, and I am more than willing to give up a little to keep the old scopes on board.  Krag                     As a side note I have both a 20x and later 24x Remington scope, but they are all but unusable on a single shot rifle as they were designed to be receiver mounted and it is difficult to get them mounted on the barrel with adequate eye relief, especially for offhand use.



My bad, meant to say “ in partnership with Unertl” ( for several).
Could have bought a couple including one of only a couple internal adjustment ones from Jimmy Stekl.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #31 - May 8th, 2019 at 11:56pm
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No bad involved(I assume your name is) Tim. There are probably not enough people to fill a bus, that care who built the Remington scopes, or who developed them. I just have an interest in that kind of information, and like to pass it along to those who might. I have seen photos of the internally adjusted scopes that you mention, but don't recall at this moment who that was that ended up with them. There is a gentleman, who now resides in I believe Australia or New Zealand, who was the lead engineer and Walkers right hand man on the project. He wrote a very interesting first hand account of the project and its end product. Thanks for responding to my post, and from the sound of it you must have been active in short range benchrest, or perhaps still are. If you have the time or inclination I would like to hear more from you. A PM is a better place rather than this thread. Best regards  Krag
  

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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #32 - May 9th, 2019 at 1:51pm
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Walker had one and Stekl Had one, his might have gone to Butch Lambert.
I have shot a lot with Jim, live 50 miles from Remington, still shoot CF & RF benchrest.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #33 - May 11th, 2019 at 8:59am
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I would try some better ammo....
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #34 - May 11th, 2019 at 10:42am
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Actually, and oddly, Federal Auto Match, at about the same price point as joeb's GECO Semi Automatic, shoots extremely well in some of my rifles.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #35 - May 11th, 2019 at 6:55pm
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I understand using cheap ammo for practice. Why take sub quality ammo to a match and place 3rd when you could shoot quality ammo and compete for first or second.

With my income I choose $0.14  ammo for my practice .
It eliminates most fliers. It really builds my self confidence when I score well in practice.

Accurracy gets exponentially more expensive.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #36 - May 11th, 2019 at 6:57pm
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I understand using cheap ammo for practice. Why take sub quality ammo to a match and place 3rd when you could shoot quality ammo and compete for first or second.

With my income I choose $0.14  ammo for my practice .
It eliminates most fliers. It really builds my self confidence when I score well in practice.

Accurracy gets exponentially more expensive. I picked this price point because it balances with my shooting skill. I would love to have a need for $0.30 ammo for offhand shooting
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #37 - May 11th, 2019 at 7:22pm
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I have something over 2 dozen different boxes of 22 ammo running the gamut of .05 to .25 a round that I try in each of my rifles. You might be surprised how often price has little to do with performance in any particular rifle. I'm happy you found one your rifle likes. I'm sorry it happened to be one of the moderately expensive ones;-)
  
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Reply #38 - May 12th, 2019 at 2:39pm
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Practicing with substandard ammo is not the way to become extremely competive you have to practice with what you shoot in a match. That is why it's become a rich man's game you have to learn what to expect from each and every shot with the ammo you will be competing with. The effects off the conditions are not same from the various others and why substandard should never be used.
« Last Edit: May 12th, 2019 at 2:45pm by JLouis »  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #39 - May 12th, 2019 at 4:15pm
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Except for perhaps 1-2% of shooters, in rimfire, you're dead wrong. Eley Tenex is the most accurate rf ammunition by far, and costs $15 for 50 shots, 30 cents a shot. Minimum. I shoot 100 target shots per session, and shoot 3-4 times a week. $90-$120 per week, less sighters, is crazy. I shoot lesser cost/lesser accuracy rf ammunition for practice, and every shooter I know does the same. RF Central shooters report doing so also.
Yesterday I ordered a case of GECO Semi-Auto, 5000 rounds, for $232 delivered. This ammunition will shoot 5-shot groups well under .5" at 50 yards, reliably. I shoot SK Standard Plus in my Charger, at 10 cents a shot.
In my short time seriously shooting rimfire, I've formed the opinion that rimfire shooting is much more difficult than center fire/schuetzen shooting.
I can load 223 jacketed for 22 cents a round and shoot it in a $450 Savage rifle as or more accurately as Tenex at 50 yards, and more accurately at 100-200 yards. That's easy. Rimfire will test the best schutzen shooters, benchrest or offhand.






JLouis wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:39pm:
Practicing with substandard ammo is not the way to become extremely competive you have to practice with what you shoot in a match. That is why it's become a rich man's game you have to learn what to expect from each and every shot with the ammo you will be competing with. The effects off the conditions are not same from the various others and why substandard should never be used.

  
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tim_s
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #40 - May 13th, 2019 at 5:59pm
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JLouis wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 2:39pm:
Practicing with substandard ammo is not the way to become extremely competive you have to practice with what you shoot in a match. That is why it's become a rich man's game you have to learn what to expect from each and every shot with the ammo you will be competing with. The effects off the conditions are not same from the various others and why substandard should never be used.


That is absolutely, 100% correct.
If you have a mediocre to fair rifle you might get away with it, base on the primary consideration being the guns limitations.
Quality guns often have ammo preferences as well the fact that the wind characteristics/ hold off will be significantly different.
The very basis of practice is learning what to expect from your equipment under less than optimum conditions.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #41 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:39pm
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Hey joeb, just looked up some notes from one of my rifles. Average group size with Federal Auto Match was .6 - with Eley Tenex 1.5. You don't know if you don't try;-)
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #42 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:45pm
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oneatatime wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:39pm:
Hey joeb, just looked up some notes from one of my rifles. Average group size with Federal Auto Match was .6 - with Eley Tenex 1.5. You don't know if you don't try;-)



Not to sound  disrepcetful but this is not proof of anything. When you buy match ammo you are paying for consisantcy. Just because the Eley did not shoot in your gun does not mean it's not high-quality ammo. Your gun just does not like it.

Put 40 rounds of Remington Auto in one group and it will show fliers. When you buy quality ammo that works in your barrel the fliers will almost completely dissapear.

Any shooters consistently winning RF matches will be shooting quality ammo.

  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #43 - May 14th, 2019 at 12:36am
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I think you've said what I was saying. If your rifle doesn't like it, it doesn't matter how high quality, how consistent, or how expensive the ammo was.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #44 - May 14th, 2019 at 2:14pm
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[quote author=3221306562636561510 link=1556707688/41#41 date=1557794369]Hey joeb, just looked up some notes from one of my rifles. Average group size with Federal Auto Match was .6 - with Eley Tenex 1.5. You don't know if you don't try;-)[/quote

Curious about something. When you shot the ELEY did you completely clean the bore, as in right down to clean metal ?
  
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oneatatime
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #45 - May 14th, 2019 at 2:43pm
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Clean and then fire seasoning shots first. Another rifle really liked another Eley- the Biathlon. I used it all up in matches and of course it is no longer made.
  
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Re: SCOPES, EXTERNALLY ADJUSTABLE
Reply #46 - May 14th, 2019 at 2:58pm
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Eley is high quality Match ammo but it is also dependant on which lot number and machine it came off that your rifle really likes or doesn't like at all. Just because it is high quality it is also not the end of it all you still have to find out which of the above it likes. It's just not as simple as going out and buying a box and then expecting it to work exceptionally well.
  
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