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Bulseyetom
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Got a real education shooting with flags today
May 2nd, 2019 at 5:00pm
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In my attempt to become proficient at breech seating my 32/40 I headed to the range for my third outing, this time packing 2 wind flags that I set at 16 yards and 50 yards with the target at 100.  The early morning wind was gentle but a switching headwind sometimes left, sometimes right and sometimes one flag in each direction.  By taking my time and trying to pick the same condition I shot a 237, my best group by far in my very short career.  Still there was lots of horizontal as the conditions were close but not always the same and I held the same each shot not having any experience in how far the bullet would get pushed to try to hold into the wind.  My next group was a real disaster as the wind picked up considerably and was blowing from the left at 45 degrees but switching to from right frequently and gusts making the tail stand out straight at times.  I soon gave up trying to shoot a group and decided to learn how much a 170 gr bullet would get pushed.  Wow, how does anybody ever shoot a 250!  Those bullets would move 4 or 5 rings easily.  I then shot a third group this time using 12.4 gr of AA#9 and managed to control the windage as the wind became more constant from the left at about 60 degrees but the vertical spread shows that this charge isn't in tune or even close.  Every trip has been a learning curve and now I have a routine of extracting the spent case, flaring the mouth, extracting the primer, cleaning the primer pocket and then charging the case with pre-loaded vials of powder.  I raise the barrel after inserting the brass and then settle back into the bags, set the trigger, aim then wait for my condition to magically appear again to fire.  By the time you extract the case and do all of this again the wind has sometimes changed a dozen times!  Again, my hat is off to all of you who shoot the 25 ring out.  In the 6ppc days we shot for group and not score so you didn't have to worry about where your first shot hit in the condition you decided was going to prevail.  Before my next trip I need to come up with a better front bag for resting the barrel in as the one I selected out of my collection left lots to be desired.  Is there a commercially built front bag designed for resting barrels?  One last question for this week, what is the time frame in competition for getting your 10 shots off benchrest?  Thanks.  Tom  (a very humble rookie)  Tongue
  
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oughtsix
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #1 - May 2nd, 2019 at 5:27pm
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Welcome to the club.  When you find your wind condition, shoot as fast as you can. Or have great patience. The best shooters are patient. I'm quick😐
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #2 - May 2nd, 2019 at 5:32pm
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Welcome to the introduction to the conditions and how much they actually pertain. It is what separates the men from the boys in the achieving the ultimate in accuracy our friend.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #3 - May 2nd, 2019 at 6:17pm
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  Welcome to the club! We've humbled a few modern bench shooters who thought they could easily "clean our clocks". Firstly, don't take your gun out of the rest. Secondly, don't be so stingy with the powder. Move slowly up to 15 grains.
Don't quit, it's great fun!
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #4 - May 2nd, 2019 at 7:10pm
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Welcome to the insanity of Schuetzen bench rest shooting. The trip on the way to success can be frustrating, but oh so much fun. Just remember, obsession is your friend!  Cheesy

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #5 - May 2nd, 2019 at 7:45pm
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I second not disturbing the rifle on the bench between shots. I tip the cartridge up and rotate it into the breach. Welcome to the wind flag club  Cheesy  The day I shot my first 250 the conditions were about 7.5 mph flipping from about 270 to 360 degrees.  I tried to shoot at  315 degrees. When the last bullet when in, I wondered how did that happen?  Huh  In my excitement, I started shooting 24s on the second target  Sad  Finally got my wits about myself and finished up with a 497. One of the few targets I remember.
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #6 - May 2nd, 2019 at 7:56pm
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Tom, you mentioned earlier about getting a new bullet mold and I noticed you're shooting a 170 gr bullet.  Most guys are shooting a heavier bullet to try and minimize the drift from the wind - 190 to around 210 gr depending on the rifling twist in your barrel.  Just a thought..............  Looks like you're well on your way!  Good luck!

Regards, Joe
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #7 - May 2nd, 2019 at 8:42pm
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Wait until you start shooting 500-1000 yds., and the wind changes numerous times from your muzzle to the target! And then you wonder what it's doing 50'-60' above your shooting position when it reaches the peak of the bullet's arc before dropping into the target!
But the sound of that ding when it hits the gong will put a huge smile on your face!
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #8 - May 2nd, 2019 at 8:58pm
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There is nothing that compares to 1,000 yards  Cool
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #9 - May 2nd, 2019 at 9:25pm
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My barrel is an original Winchester that left New Haven in 1893 so it has a 16 twist.  I don't think it would like 200 grain bullets.  I modified my front bag this afternoon so hopefully I have better tracking.  I will leave the rifle in the rest next week and see how I fare.  I haven't shot over flags in probably 10 years and let me tell you it is not like riding a bicycle!  I am glad I only used 2 for 100 yard shooting as my brain would have malfunctioned if I set up and tried to comprehend 4 like I used to.  Even then everybody else shot with 5 at 100 yards but my head hurt bad enough with 4!   Lips Sealed  Tom
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #10 - May 3rd, 2019 at 12:15pm
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That ol' Winchester barrel might like a bullet of that weight if it's not a long-nosed or pointy sort of bullet. Mine, a bit older than yours, loves two bullets that are just under 200 gr. One needs to be a tick or two faster to not yaw a bit on the target, but still accurate at that. Try some before you give in.
  

happily ignored by J. "Sonny" Louis
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #11 - May 3rd, 2019 at 12:38pm
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My first rifle was a 32-40 that loved a 195 gr flat point bullet.  Best target it shot was on the 24-25 line, one hole, about 3/4" CL-CL, early morning match in the shade on a black target.  I could not see where they were hitting after the first few 25's.  A few got their centers into the 24  Embarrassed

My .33 that ends in 17.5 twist shoots 250s with at 213 gr flat point bullet when ever I'm up to the task.  Huh
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #12 - May 3rd, 2019 at 1:56pm
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It cracks me up when I put out my flags at our Range and these guys around me have no clue about the wind.  There shooting when A nice 8 mph comes thru,then comment that the other day they were dropping them right in there and today there all over the place. I just smile now.........
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #13 - May 7th, 2019 at 11:37am
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I will give you the best wind advice I every got.
Years ago I complimented a shooter on his wind doping ability. He told my he was a lousy wind doper. He told me he waited till his condition came back and he waited as long as it took.
Thats the best advice I ever got don't get antsy wait till those flags are the same not kinda like what the last shot was.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #14 - May 7th, 2019 at 4:11pm
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When I made my set of wind flags/stands, I set them up in the yard to see how they worked, and my wife came out and said "Oh, wind callers!"  Yep, that's about right, it can be dead calm at the range & as soon as   I set them up the wind picks up!  That was good advice 40_Rod...some of the old masters like Rowland would take two days to shoot a group!
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #15 - May 7th, 2019 at 4:22pm
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Tom, here's some reading material for you:
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And how to see the details of mirage - look at the target with your scope out of focus
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #16 - May 8th, 2019 at 3:56pm
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The wind and mirage are actually your very best friends. It is that dead calm one believes is there that always has a hidden condition that cannot be seen. Making it impossible to adjust too that is the very worst enemy. It will kick your behind everytime without that least bit of sympathy and it will make one wail and weep wondering what the heck is going on with what why and how come?
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #17 - May 11th, 2019 at 10:10am
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You can have bullets deviate outside the bulls eye on calm days.

You need to learn to call both the wind and the mirage to obtain the best scores in a competition or to shoot your own tightest group.

The ability to call the wind will help you to better tune your rifle since the group size is less influenced by the wind and mirage which has been compensated for.
« Last Edit: May 11th, 2019 at 10:19am by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #18 - May 11th, 2019 at 5:09pm
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By far the most important aspect of successful competitive shooting or just possibly wanting to achieve the smallest groups. Is having the ability to call each and every shot and if not there is absolutely no way to know if it's you, the conditions, your setup, load or something pertaining to the rifle itself when shooting off the bench.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #19 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:45am
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I agree with you on the importance of being able to call your shots accurately.  While I mostly play a different game than you, when practicing I plot each and every shot I make and include the shot call as part of it.  It definitely helps you understand any errors you are making and enables you to figure out how to correct them.  In a match it also helps reduce sight correction errors Smiley

Chris.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #20 - May 12th, 2019 at 4:15pm
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Some just like to get out and shoot, some try to get the most out of what they might be shooing and some might want to become extremely competive. Either way if the bullet does go where one calls to be when the trigger breaks the outcome is always the same leaving one wondering how come and why? Once one can get all of it sorted out and can now call each and every shot. He is on the high road to achieving the very best out of both himself and his rifle and it is called Marksmanship.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #21 - May 12th, 2019 at 5:32pm
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JLouis wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 4:15pm:
Some just like to get out and shoot, some try to get the most out of what they might be shooing and some might want to become extremely competive. Either way if the bullet does go where one calls to be when the trigger breaks the outcome is always the same leaving one wondering how come and why? Once one can get all of it sorted out and can now call each and every shot. He is on the high road to achieving the very best out of both himself and his rifle and it is called Marksmanship.

What is the tolerance of your call JL?
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #22 - May 12th, 2019 at 6:17pm
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Zero Bob it's either good or bad and the good ones have exceeded the bad due to hard work, total dedication and time. I am what you might call a perfectionist so I have never self accepted those that are close as being good. And believe me the bad ones are still there but just not as many in the past. I also shoot to hit the number 25 in the 25 ring and not just to get the bullet inside the ring itself. How often does it occur not often enough by any means but it has always been my ultimate goal. It is also the same goal my good friend Jerry Hartwig has always had and through his own dedication and hard work he has become allot better at now than myself as it should. I have been heading into my has been years health issues have are taken there toll. But as my good Friend Duane Jenner has always pointed it's better to have been a has been than a never was. Don't get me wrong I still intend to finish in the top three and will never lay down and die it's just a bit more challenging to get up to being number one.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #23 - May 12th, 2019 at 7:35pm
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Calling your shot is essential, if you want to improve results. True in any shooting sport not just rifle shooting. Pull the trigger call the shot  then confirm the strike. If they don’t match what happened to cause off call.  Then correct next shot..

It’s Essential to good performance. Offhand at 200 I want to call strikes to 2 MOA, and mark strike and call on a target duplicate beside me.

Boats
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #24 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:53pm
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JLouis wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 6:17pm:
Zero Bob it's either good or bad and the good ones have exceeded the bad due to hard work, total dedication and time. I am what you might call a perfectionist so I have never self accepted those that are close as being good. And believe me the bad ones are still there but just not as many in the past. I also shoot to hit the number 25 in the 25 ring and not just to get the bullet inside the ring itself. How often does it occur not often enough by any means but it has always been my ultimate goal. It is also the same goal my good friend Jerry Hartwig has always had and through his own dedication and hard work he has become allot better at now than myself as it should. I have been heading into my has been years health issues have are taken there toll. But as my good Friend Duane Jenner has always pointed it's better to have been a has been than a never was. Don't get me wrong I still intend to finish in the top three and will never lay down and die it's just a bit more challenging to get up to being number one.

When you shoot to hit the little space between the 2 and the 5, how often do you call the hit there?  How often do you call a 24?
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #25 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:00pm
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I totally agree with JLouis about not just trying to hit the 25 ring, but concentrate for the very center of the twenty five ring and visualize the shot going to that spot- it helps. Guess that is "concentration".
Bob
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #26 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:42pm
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BobZ when the trigger breaks I typically already know where the bullet is going to end up. More times than not I already know just how badly I screwed up and long before I dare to look through my spotting scope. How many times do I actually wipe out or touch the number 25? In all honesty very few but the shot will typically be a 25 and not a 24 or possibly being even worst. The rifle is capable and I know that am too but the conditions over rule the both and it is not untypical to make a wrong condition call. Not a bad thing by any means but there is no excuse when the trigger breaks and instantly knowing full well it had nothing to do with the conditions but it was me who screwed up.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #27 - May 12th, 2019 at 11:01pm
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GameWarden intense concentration on the Crosshairs and the exact point on the target while also typically having to hold off. If the crosshairs are not in the same exact place when the rifle goes off one should instantly know where on that target that shot will end up.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #28 - May 13th, 2019 at 12:55am
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Seems to me you would be messing up nearly every shot with a tolerance of plus or minus "0" and not having all of them between the 2 and the 5.
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #29 - May 13th, 2019 at 12:13pm
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BobZ it's the same approch used to shoot small groups with the added challenge of having to place those small groups into the center of an 1 1/2 circle. The tolerance for placing each shot through the same hole for either group or score would be the same would it not.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #30 - May 13th, 2019 at 5:37pm
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I always allow a little tolerance for shot placement since my rifle will not place 10 shots  in a .001" group. 

  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #31 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:06pm
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I have shot a few in the 1's and a bit more in the 2's and quite a few in 3's. Do I think my rifle is capable of doing better the answer is yes indeed. Am I as capable as my rifle that has yet to be consistently done. But it is also no fault to my rifle BobZ it all falls back on me.
  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #32 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:33pm
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10 shots at 200 in the 1s and 2s? That's pretty good.  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #33 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:13pm
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The only way to truly determine if a particular rifle is capable of one hole groups is to find an indoor 200 yd. range, and test it in a machine rest with no wind, or other external input that can affect the bullet's flight.
Even a 100 yd. indoor range would give some idea, but not sure if it would transpose into a 200 yd. result?
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #34 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:28pm
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I've shot quite a few one hole groups, 8 to 10 shots are 200 with my .32-40, .33-47 and .45-100, but no where near the .1s or .2s.   I very seldom shoot 5 because all the matches are 10 shots. Even did one with 12 shots offhand with a .54 flinter at 50 yards.  Ah, those were the days  Grin  We do have better conditions at Tacoma than most ranges ever see.
  

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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #35 - May 13th, 2019 at 10:40pm
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BobZ I should have been more clear they were 5 shot groups at a 100 not at 2. The best 10 shot group at 100 to date was in a CBA group match and in the upper 4's. Best 5 shot groups at 200 in practice only as we don't hold group matches at 200 have been in the 5's with the 28-35 not the 32-40. My 25 - 10 shot 200yd. group average shot over several months of both hot, cold and various range conditions. A test for long term day in and day out consistency purposes only ended up at 1.42 and also shot with the 28-35.
« Last Edit: May 13th, 2019 at 10:48pm by JLouis »  
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Re: Got a real education shooting with flags today
Reply #36 - May 13th, 2019 at 11:53pm
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The thing about calling offhand shots that amazed Ol' Shelton when he was spotting for me back in the late 80s and 90s was  my accurate calling  the score and clock position.  Once in a while I'd be a point or two off.   

I hate to admit it but I was more amazed than he was  Cheesy  Good gusser, eh?  Roll Eyes
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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