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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel (Read 2451 times)
LRF
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
May 3rd, 2019 at 9:47pm
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Cool
If you know anymore history or possibly even half truths about the gun please tell us. Smiley
  
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Chuckster
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #1 - May 3rd, 2019 at 10:30pm
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Nice rifle and a good restoring job, not too much.
My idea of a buffalo rifle, maybe a little light for 50 plus shots of .50 caliber.
Chuck
  
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JLouis
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #2 - May 3rd, 2019 at 10:51pm
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Also probably hurt the collector value price.
  
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coljimmy
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #3 - May 3rd, 2019 at 11:00pm
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Let me suggest "Metal Cleaner", a soft metal alloy that resembles a Brillo Pad, but this stuff doesn't scratch a blue finish or even nickel plate, especially when used with a drop of any kind of oil.  MSRP is $6, but also seen for 5.  Wrap a few strands around a bore brush and it really helps a rusty bore.  I much prefer it to fine steel wool.  I will try a copper penny, thanks for the tip.  Good job on the Sharps.
James
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #4 - May 3rd, 2019 at 11:10pm
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Looks like a conversion action with a 74 lockplate. Did the stated 1873 manufacture date come from a factory letter ? All things being equal- if that gun was for sale in its prior untouched heavily rusted state and in its current cleaned state it would without a doubt bring more money with the rust...probably a lot more money.
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #5 - May 3rd, 2019 at 11:18pm
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Hmmm as I look at it more it could be an 1869. Cant tell need a better look at the lockplate. Thats an early barrel stamp and the hump on the lockplate looks like an 1869. Is the lockplate thicker than a typical 1874 ? If thats a numbers matching gun it would be very interesting. The refinished wood and now the cleaned metal cut the value 50-70%. Sharps guys like the rust  Sad
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #6 - May 3rd, 2019 at 11:33pm
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I disagree. I buy and sell whats probably an above average number of sharps sporting rifles and see a fair number of them bought and sold. The sanded/cleaned wood hurt the gun. The cleaned metal look killed it. I generally dont get into contentous things on here and keep my opinion to myself but cleaning the metal on that rifle really hurt its value. You scraped away thousands of dollars with the rust. people buying these kind of guns are buying the rust and wear and bruises. They arent buying blueing. You cant grade a sharps buffalo gun like a model 70 winchester. Like it or not you hurt the value of this gun-big time. It should never have been cleaned like that
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #7 - May 3rd, 2019 at 11:35pm
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And the wood has absolutley been cleaned. All the best-

Zack
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #8 - May 3rd, 2019 at 11:48pm
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Dave Please tell me you didn't scrape that stock.  Anyone can see from a mile that is not the original patina.  That stock has been taken down with a scraper or whatever. Between the cleaned metal and scraped stock  that gun lost $5000-$7000  or value. If it's a 1869  then maybe more.  If you did the cleaning you should cut a check to the owner.  It should be a crime.  I seriously feel sick but this kind of thing happens anymore. Not only that but it gets posted on a site  pertaining to antique guns as a success...
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #9 - May 4th, 2019 at 12:02am
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That butt stock has absolutely been cleaned. This is like arguing that the sky is blue.  Dont take my word for it. Take it to a real gunshow. Lay that gun on a table at Denver then see the ol boys cringe and weep. For anyone following this thread and might be thinking about "cleaning" their old sharps or rolling block or plains rifle- what was done to this gun was a shame. Just a crying shame...
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #10 - May 4th, 2019 at 12:13am
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Forgive the bad picture. Its dark, bad lighting, cell phone pic etc. take a look at this gun. Its covered in rust. Has a decent bore and I could scrape the metal, replace the wood, straighten the bent tang and have a gun exactly like the one the original poster posted. Dig deeper and you find out it was shipped to Ft Griffin Texas. A buffalo hunter bought this gun off the rack of Frank Conrads store which was part of a cluster of thrown together tents and plank buildings on the plains of north Texas. What happened to that buffalo hunter ? No one will ever know for sure but a lot of them met untimely ends at the hands of unfriendly Comanches. look closer at the gun and you will see the barrel has been cut down to 20"- then carried so much that the edges on the underside of the octagon barrel have been worn smooth. What happened to this gun that its in such poor shape ? I dont know but the upper tang has been bent down and the end of the lower tang was broken off. Was it taken off a dead hide hunter by a Comanche then used as a club in some desperate last stand then left on the plains ? No idea but when I pick up this gun I can see the history it lived through. It was there. When I pick up a gun like the one Dave cleaned I just see another cleaned sharps with a shiny barrel... Cry
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #11 - May 4th, 2019 at 12:23am
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Forgive another bad picture. This gun is a heavy 44-90 Buffalo gun. Went to Frank Freund i Cheyenne. Forend worn off. Covered in rust. Thats 140 years of patina on the wood. A scraper, a penny, strong elbow and some OOO steel wool And it would look just like your Dave. Would also be worth about 70% less
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #12 - May 4th, 2019 at 12:24am
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Pic
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #13 - May 4th, 2019 at 2:50pm
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Nope. Wood has clearly been messed with. "Derusting" hurt the value guaranteed. You did the owner no favors. The first thing I would do if I got this gun would be to re-rust it to make it not look like it was just scraped with a penny and rubbed with wd40 and steel wool. Glad the owner is happy. Ignorance is bliss I guess. For others looking at this thread- dont do it !! Its a crime against history and another relic of our past has been irreparably damaged. If that gun looked like it had been dug out of the ground and still had dirt sticking on it would have been better to just brush the dirt off, apply some light oil to the metal only to stop but not remove the active rust and then either leave it alone or sell it to someone that will. At minimum that wood has been scraped, sanded and oiled. Sadly everyone seems to have steel wool and linseed oil around their garage. A couple beers later and there you go. Sad
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #14 - May 4th, 2019 at 2:56pm
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I won't get into the debate about cleaning vs. value.  But please do replace the Allen-headed forearm screw.  If the threads are unmolested, original screws should still available from Dixie, S&S, and possibly other sources.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #15 - May 4th, 2019 at 5:30pm
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Dave,
  I think you did a damn fine job. For Zack to compare it to a dug relic or the other one in better condition than your's is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is the idea your work devalued it by 5-7 thousand dollars or more. The stock doesn't look touched to me.
  I smell a troll. Wink
  

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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #16 - May 4th, 2019 at 6:08pm
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No Jeff not a troll. Been here for going on a decade. Instead of name calling Ill just say that anyone who has seen more than one original sharps knows that wood has been cleaned and that cleaning the metal like was done did more damage yet. All the best and Im done with this as it could go on forever,

Zack
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #17 - May 4th, 2019 at 7:15pm
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Not picking sides but in Zack's defense a many a dug relic from Civil War battlefields will bring, to my way of thinking, unbelieveable amounts of money while a pristine example of the same period pales in comparison. Could be that many of the Sharps investors hold to the same value standards.
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #18 - May 5th, 2019 at 5:29pm
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  Probably another $1000 down the drain. Grin
  

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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #19 - May 5th, 2019 at 6:10pm
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Grin that smug Yankee humor is funny regardless if its ignorant ! Grin Endearing too.
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #20 - May 5th, 2019 at 8:39pm
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Red rust is active rust; it's still causing damage and by no stretch can be called "patina".  Speaking as a restorationist and a professional appraiser, it seems to me that Schuetzendave did the right thing.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #21 - May 5th, 2019 at 10:32pm
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I would agree regarding red active rust but would still argue that 1- too much cleaning was done as the gun looks like a bright shiny wreck or 2- if the gun was 100% active crawling red rust  the job was only half done and the gun was left looking bad after. Either case an amateurish job on a potentially rare gun.  Might as well dropped the thing in evaporust and rubbed it down with vans-probably would have looked better actually. I violated my own "im not going back tit for tat on this post forever" rule. Have a nice day all and keep the steel wool, pennies and blind enthusiasm off of old guns- and remember that people can disagree and call each other out without YELLING (dave)  or name calling (jeff) and no "Yankee" is not name calling I capitalized it  Roll Eyes
  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #22 - May 6th, 2019 at 8:08am
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Dave- that barrel looks terrible. Im sorry it just does. It looks like a poorly cleaned gun. That grey is what I am referring to when I say "bright". A patinated gun or even a gun that was abused and rusted but continued to be used doesnt look like that. There are lots of other less aggressive ways of neutralizing active rust if the gun was truly 100% active red rust. When people replace parts on antique guns actively rusting the part is the first step in matching the patina. The way that gun was cleaned it screams from a mile away that the metal was cleaned. That gun gets listed by an auction house and the description will read rare 1869 sharps with highly desireable heavy barrel in .50cal. Condition: cleaned metal and wood- the "cleaned metal and wood" part is not a good thing. It is not like saying very clean 1955 Chevy Apache. With many antique firearms and Sharps in particular the metal and wood cleaning easily cut the value in half or more. The more pics that are sent and the more I look at them the more sad I feel that the rifle was damaged so.   I stand by everything I said previously.
« Last Edit: May 6th, 2019 at 8:28am by Zack T »  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #23 - May 6th, 2019 at 9:34am
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Right on Bill L about the red rust.

Kudos to Dave and his friend for saving this great piece of firearm history. Bet she will speak again soon and we will get to see targets. Keep her on the range often, the patina will return naturally and we can enjoy hearing that big fifty roar for many more years unlike that stockless tent stake posted earlier.

Wink
  

Don
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #24 - May 6th, 2019 at 9:54am
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Don- buy a shiloh if thats what you want. Forrest Fenn owns sitting bulls pipe but does he clean off the grime and smoke it ? Maybe you would so it wouldnt just be a tomato stake on the wall. The rusty exterior of the gun Dave killed wasnt keeping it from being shot. That attitude ruins so many artifacts of our past each day. Scares me.
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #25 - May 6th, 2019 at 12:14pm
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Zack T wrote on May 6th, 2019 at 9:54am:
Don- buy a shiloh if thats what you want. Forrest Fenn owns sitting bulls pipe but does he clean off the grime and smoke it ? Maybe you would so it wouldnt just be a tomato stake on the wall. The rusty exterior of the gun Dave killed wasnt keeping it from being shot. That attitude ruins so many artifacts of our past each day. Scares me.


This is a perfect example of why many people do not participate in these forums.
  

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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #26 - May 6th, 2019 at 12:46pm
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You know Zack I tried just what you suggest, I have Pope High Wall Schuetzen (last muzzle loading barrel Harry made) in my care and I would not trade one shot from that rifle for a 1000 shots from the modern High Wall I bought to take the pressure off the Pope. I do not shoot it often but I do shoot it occasionally to keep Harry from throwing a lightening bolt through my heart for not shooting it.

DP
  

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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #27 - May 6th, 2019 at 2:16pm
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Don1885, is your Pope High Wall the one he built for Lucian Carey and which, I think, was sold at Julia's 4-5 years ago?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #28 - May 6th, 2019 at 2:36pm
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Yes it is Bill.
  

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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #29 - May 6th, 2019 at 4:05pm
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While we all regret mistakes made in attempt to restore or clean up a antique, it is really no one's business but that of the owner. Volunteer your opinion once. There isn't any point in arguing. I am fortunate to have a Pope Highwall, and I do shoot it.
  

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Re: 1873 Sharps 50 Bull Barrel
Reply #30 - May 6th, 2019 at 8:29pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on May 6th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
...This is a perfect example of why many people do not participate in these forums.

Seemed, past tense, to be an interesting project. Is perfection a one way street?
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #31 - May 8th, 2019 at 2:02pm
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The 1873 Sharps 50 caliber rifle was for sale for many years with the rest of the 400 rifle collection from Fort Whoop Up.
390 of the rifles were purchased by collectors; but 10 rifles were of poor quality and were never purchased by collectors, instead they were given to the seller's brother.

I posted this rifle on a Sharps forum as well as this forum but only mentioned it had been cleaned on this forum to see the response.

It is interesting no one on the Sharps forum complained about its condition.

If the rifle had lot's of collector value why did it not sell to any collector over the years for any price when it had red rust all over it.

Actually the MARKET already declared it's lack of value to the collectors when it was for sale for numerous years.

Now the present owner is not embarrassed to bring the rifle out of the closet and go shoot it.
The present owner already understood it had little collector value and that arguments by arrogant collectors that it would destroy its value were meaningless.

So if you have a rifle with red rust on it; I do suggest you carefully clean it to stabilize it to prevent further deterioration of the rifle.

But agreed if it has a natural black patina from natural rust bluing; please do not try to clean it.
« Last Edit: May 8th, 2019 at 2:17pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #32 - May 8th, 2019 at 8:30pm
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Dave could you please link the sharps collectors site ? This arrogant collector would like to see the discussion for his own "education"

Zack
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #33 - May 8th, 2019 at 9:46pm
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It is on the Shiloh Sharps site - and it is linked there to this post.

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Why? You want to go over there and complain too.
« Last Edit: May 8th, 2019 at 9:52pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Zack T
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #34 - May 8th, 2019 at 9:59pm
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Hi Dave- no i am seriously just curious. If im wrong im happy to say so. From the "discussion" over there it doesnt sound like there were any actual opinions or actual discussion. This isnt a personal attack man. I simply expressed my opinion. I buy a fair number of sharps. I look at a fair number of sharps and I see a lot of sharps bought and sold. My opinion is based on those experiences. If there is other information or discussion that actually is robust and refutes my opinions i am happy to weigh those objectively otherwise this thread has gone on too long in this direction with me admittedly to blame in large part
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #35 - May 11th, 2019 at 8:41pm
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Let’s see. A halfway decent Sharps rifle is given to the “grandkids” say eighty years ago or so, and ends up in a leaky barn or wood shed. Today, it is brown and rusted up. It is still worth “thousands of dollars” to a collector? Really?  Huh
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #36 - May 12th, 2019 at 8:59am
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rollingblock wrote on May 11th, 2019 at 8:41pm:
Let’s see. A halfway decent Sharps rifle is given to the “grandkids” say eighty years ago or so, and ends up in a leaky barn or wood shed. Today, it is brown and rusted up. It is still worth “thousands of dollars” to a collector? Really?  Huh


Yes, really! This phenomenon seems to be pretty common among old sidehammer Sharps sporting rifles. Of course they're worth more if kept in nice shape, but even rusty they bring thousands of dollars regularly.
  

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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #37 - May 12th, 2019 at 9:30am
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So why did the collectors refuse to buy this rusty one at any price when it was on the Canadian market for numerous years?

Are the rusty items the collectors value in the US because of the market for Civil War relics?

Sorry it appears the collectors in Canada do not value rusty old Sharps that way.

The MARKET has already confirmed it.
« Last Edit: May 12th, 2019 at 10:07am by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #38 - May 12th, 2019 at 12:52pm
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I guess since the meat-n-taters of the thread are gone, this is only about the opinion of the definition of rust. Folks can do anything they want to their rifles in my opinion. The thing that makes me pause a bit, sometimes cringe, is if steel wool is taken to an antique. Yup, there could be a place for it, but it's probably taking a little bit of good stuff along with the bad.
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #39 - May 12th, 2019 at 1:18pm
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Yeah, rusty old Sharps always bring more than rusty old rolling blocks, except, there was this dug up 50-70 one out of Montana with the initials GAC on it.......
  
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Re: 1873 Sharps 90 Bull Barrel
Reply #40 - May 13th, 2019 at 10:30pm
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I have noticed there is a POLL with no question at the beginning of this thread.

Is there a photo of the rifle being discussed in this thread?

Kind of confused. Am I missing something?

Regards,
Powderman
  
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