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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready (Read 945 times)
John Boy
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Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
May 4th, 2019 at 2:24pm
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Stevens 28-30-120 “Stumpy Rifle” is range ready

* 50 Rocky Mountain Ctg Co brass
* 50 CCI SR Primers
* 50 Accurate 28-120B 1:20 bullets, 125gr - clone of the Ideal 287221 bullet
* 25 reloads of 30gr DuPont 1F black powder
* 25 reloads of 15.7gr IMR 4198

« Last Edit: May 4th, 2019 at 2:35pm by John Boy »  

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slumlord44
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #1 - May 4th, 2019 at 5:46pm
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I'm curious as to your choice of 1F black powder? I would be thinking 2F or even possibly 3F.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #2 - May 4th, 2019 at 8:07pm
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I'm curious as to your choice of 1F black powder?

Slumlord - because it was the original load for the 28-30-120 cartridge:
Cartridges of the World, Obsolete American Rifle Cartridges - 8th Edition
Quote:
Remington made the first factory loads for the 28-30 and used 120gr bullets and 30 grains of Fg

Not mentioned but the 120gr bullets were the Lyman 287221, which I had Accurate Molds clone.
Accurate to 300yds and was a favorite cartridge of Harry Pope and 'other fine barrel makers'. Pope even said it was better than the 32-40

  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #3 - May 5th, 2019 at 1:02am
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I didn't know that. Learn something new every day. I'm going from my muzzeloader memory bank. 3f for .45 and under, 2f for 50 and over, and 1f for cannons if my memory serves me right. My old brain memory sometimes fails me. I have a .28-30 that I haven't shot yet. Prety sure I have a pound of 1f that I thought I didn't have a use for.
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #4 - May 5th, 2019 at 1:30am
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This looks like something that's going to send me down a deep, dark hole.   I've been going through the different boxes of brass trying to find a cartridge to make this from.  Donnelly says there isn't anything out there even close I haven't got to Nonte's book yet - I think there is one that will require some serious swaging and then nibbing to get the length.  The 30 remington?  What did Pope use? turned brass?
Slumlord, do you have brass for this?

I just got a supply of 223 basic in for the 25-21 and 25-20 SS projects. Now this... and I have a 28 caliber barrel blank too!
Greg
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #5 - May 5th, 2019 at 7:27am
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The only modern case long enough to make .28-30 from was the European 6x70R.  Huntington's had some a few years ago. When  I bought the last that they had, I was told that there would be no more.  (I've already shared out all but a few of what I bought.)

Maybe by now Norma has made another run?  I haven't been keeping up.

Pope had new factory-drawn brass to play with. Back in the day, somebody at UMC was a wizard at drawing long skinny cases for Stevens.  A decent quantity of original .28-30 brass turned up on Gunbroker a couple of years ago, (but I doubt it will again).  Went for swingeing prices. I've paid collector prices for individual rounds, just to verify Barnes' measurements.
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #6 - May 5th, 2019 at 10:18am
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uscra112, great word. From your vocabulary, or looked up? I needed to look for it. Here's an attaboy for it. Smiley

Swingeing means severe, excessive,  or similar for those of you that thought it was just a misspelled word.
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #7 - May 5th, 2019 at 10:29am
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The only modern case long enough to make .28-30 from was the European 6x70R.  Huntington's had some a few years ago.

Cartridge Conversions says the only possible way to reform 28-30 Stevens is to re-body a 224 Weatherby case and the only other way is to use 7/16" brass rod and lathe turn them - chamfer -anneal and FL size them
OK:
* Norma sells drawn 224 Weatherby brass at $2.15 per case ... On Sale Now
* Rocky Mountain Ctg Co sells lathe turned 28-30 brass at $3.25 per case.  I got mine in a little over 3 weeks
To me, Rocky Mountain Ctg Co brass is the only logical way to go
When mine came from Rocky Mountain, I annealed them - chamfered them and no FL sizing was necessary and paid $162.50 for 50 pieces
« Last Edit: May 5th, 2019 at 10:49am by John Boy »  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #8 - May 5th, 2019 at 10:59am
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John Boy
Your 28-30 project is exciting, in a single shot rifle sort of way. Please let us know how your shooting tests go.
I noticed you prepared loads of Fg and IMR4198, have you considered duplex loads of those two powders? Perhaps 3 to 3.5gr 4198* as priming charge and the remainder black? Back in the day, nearly all top tier match shooters used duplex loads to reduce barrel fouling. Duplex will shoot as well as straight black but with less fouling.

*IMR 4227 and SR 4759 are also good choices for duplex for Schuetzen-type cartridges.
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #9 - May 5th, 2019 at 12:36pm
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I noticed you prepared loads of Fg and IMR4198, have you considered duplex loads of those two powders?

RSW - you must have read my mind  Wink  After I charged 15 of the cases with 1F, thought should have I'd duplex-ed 10 cases with 3grs of 4895 and 27 grs of 1F. Would guess that Pope and the 'boy's used duplex-ed rounds with Semi Smokeless powder as a priming powder
So I'll chrono the 1F's (believe ~ 1400 fps) & the 4198's (believe ~ 1510 fps) first
Then the next charge-because Alliant 300-MP works so well in 32-40 & 38-55 reloads ... want to calculate a charge with the 300-MP & CCI SR Magnum 450 primers - which I don't have any

Any suggestions for the 300-MP charge in the 28-30 brass would be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking (off hand) somewhere between 12 -14grs
« Last Edit: May 5th, 2019 at 1:52pm by John Boy »  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #10 - May 5th, 2019 at 2:01pm
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So I'll chrono the 1F's (believe ~ 1400 fps) & the 4198's (believe ~ 1510 fps) first

RSW - the curiosity got to me and boy, was I wrong ... off to the basement bullet trap with the MagnetoSpeed chrono:
* 1F DuPont = 1134
* IMR 4198 = 1310
Hello duplexed black powder. Believe the 300-MP charge has to be on the light side. Overall, published fps for the 28-30 caliber I read is 1500 fps!
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #11 - May 5th, 2019 at 2:10pm
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Off and on I've been running Quickload scenarios for the .28-30.  Nothing looks very good to me.  Load densities are very low. 

QL does not have 300MP in its' database, so I have to rely on the Accurate burn rate chart to find an equivalent. 

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

On that basis I ran scenarios for the 120 grain bullet seated in the case using W296 and H110.   At 14 grains the model says 15,000 psi and 1700 fps, from a 24" barrel.  Only on a hunch, I'm going to start with something faster.    But this is all speculation - my own .28-30 is waiting for me to fit the wood, so has not been to the range.  Just functionality-tested in the back yard using 8 grains of Blue Dot.
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #12 - May 5th, 2019 at 2:30pm
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The .224 Weatherby case is still 1/2 inch too short, as I read Barnes.   And swaging down that base would be a real project.  The 6x70 is just .006" smaller at the base than the .28-30, and it's a whole 1/4 inch longer than the .28-30 case.  Moot point, of course, unless more shows up in the marketplace.
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #13 - May 5th, 2019 at 3:43pm
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John Boy
"Would guess that Pope and the 'boy's used duplex-ed rounds with Semi Smokeless powder as a priming powder"
I think your statement reflects what makes sense to us modern shooters but in fact was not the case. Semi-smokeless powder was a mechanical mixture of black powder and nitrocellulose (made with wood fiber rather than cotton). During Schuetzen's Golden Age, semi-smokeless was used as the main charge with a priming charge being 3-5 grains (bulk) DuPont No.1 smokeless. While semi-smokeless was very popular among competitive shooters, others stuck with black powder (typically Laflin & Rand or Hazard Kentucky) Fg, again with DuPont No.1 smokeless as priming charge.
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #14 - May 5th, 2019 at 6:00pm
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Here is a picture of a bullet and some of the powder taken from original UMC 28-30-120 loaded rounds.  With all due respect to Frank Barnes, the powder is definitely not Fg.
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #15 - May 5th, 2019 at 6:06pm
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During Schuetzen's Golden Age, semi-smokeless was used as the main charge with a priming charge being 3-5 grains (bulk) DuPont No.1 smokeless.
Missed the smokeless side of the charge, didn't I  Embarrassed
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #16 - May 5th, 2019 at 6:15pm
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And 1Fg compared with the reference velocity of 1400 fps, 1134 fps doesn't even come close
Oh well, a learning experience with this caliber.  Even the 4198 charge at 1310 fps doesn't come close to the stated 1510 fps
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #17 - May 5th, 2019 at 6:49pm
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I bought a Stevens 52 in 28-30 a couple of months ago and have been working on smokeless loads . Tried 4100 and h108 with no luck , would get velocity drop of 200 fps at least 1 out of every 5 shots. Switched to 4227 and problems went away. I am using 130 and 150 grain bullets with a cork wad .

A while back some one was making 28-30 brass using 30-06 cases , must have been a lot of work and many steps involved.

Dales
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #18 - May 5th, 2019 at 9:49pm
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Switched to 4227 and problems went away
Dales, good information. Why?
Alliant 300-MP burn rate is right in there with IMR/H 4227/4198 and a little slower than H110. So using 15.7gr of 4198, I'll drop down 10% and work my way up to where the rifle likes good accuracy
Thanks
As for the cork wad - on or off the powder column?
  

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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #19 - May 6th, 2019 at 8:58am
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I tried 300MP also with the same problem , ignition problem ?  I have the wad 1/4" above powder . I am using Bertram cases so small rifle primers , maybe that is why original cases used large rifle primers .
Dales
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #20 - May 6th, 2019 at 9:20am
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4227 is working good so far for me. Of the pistol powders mentioned, it seems generally more stable in reduced capacity loads and light bullets. Probably due to having more bulk, better fill, and generally takes a bit more powder to reach the same velocity.

4198 has a better fill, but leaves more unburned powder behind.

If your velocity is that much lower than a reliable prediction, I would capture a bullet and look for excessive carbon fouling in front of the base. Look for the same behind the neck of your brass. The pressure has to be going somewhere.

Also check the volume of the brass. My UMC depending on trim length, hold 38-39 grains of distilled water by weight. They are a bit short for the most part.

If using Quickload for estimates, I always have trouble with cast bullets matching predictions without making adjustments, and one of its shortcomings (or mine because I can’t figre it out) is that it does not recognize the pressure increase when you jam a bullet in the lands. It will allow for a negative seating depth, 1/16” in front of the case is input as -0.0625”. But pressure and velocity drop in the program, when measured velocity actually increases.

For what it’s worth, I’m using 12.6 grains of 4227 with a 135 Hoch bullet seated .080” ahead of the case. Velocity is in the low/mid 1500’s. I am sorting through some rifle and sight issues, as well as casting, but in general three shot groups are 3/4” at 50 yards. Tang sight, off bags. Load development really hasn’t even started other than picking a likely powder.
  
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Re: Stevens 28-30-120 (Stumpy) is Range Ready
Reply #21 - May 6th, 2019 at 6:03pm
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I tried 300MP also with the same problem , ignition problem ? 

Dales, Definitely an ignition problem with 300-MP:
* I've shot 300-MP in 32-40's & 38-55's (fixed and breached) with LR Magnum primers ... all went boom and good SD's
Today I charged 12 cases with 300-MP, using CCI SR & Remington SR Benchrest primers
* One ignited the powder column
* 11 went 'Poof" and the powder looked like it was sprayed with water in the cases
* All with no wad
I'll bet money, when I get Magnum primers later this week - they all will go Boom
The one reload that did ignite of 300-MP, 14.5gr - clocked at 1809 fps
  

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