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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) On the horns of a dilemma (Read 4495 times)
Mick B
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #30 - May 24th, 2019 at 7:39pm
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Premod
I only shoot black powder as I shoot with a black powder club. I was getting a bit of messy blow bye on the neck of the case and I did bell the cases after that, which cured the problem.  I found that I had to be very careful with the belling process as if even slightly overdone getting a case to chamber was often a problem.
I did give paper patching a brief try as I had a little experience with the process from my days with the 45/90 and a supply of 9# onion skin paper, unfortunately luck was not with me and I gave the rest of patched bullets to a friend who has a Maynard 40/65 to try.

Chris
I had hoped that the 40/82 idea may work but the email I sent to PTG has not been answered, so I'm still in the dark somewhat with that plan. If a suitable barrel was available here with a gunsmith familiar with working on this type of rifle I would have gone the re barrel route, unfortunately neither is the case.
I have done the costing on getting a barrel from the US, the total cost would be in the vicinity of A$1700 what with export permits, profiling, fitting to the action etc. Then there is sales tax and duty when it gets here. I'm trying  to get out of this problem as cheaply as possible, but so far the only moderately cheap option that would work for sure would be to send the barrel to the US and have it re lined and a chamber cut.
If I end up going this way I would probably go back to the 40/60 Maynard caliber for which I have all the re loading gear already and I like the cartridge.
The only problem with this option is that many of the options associated with a barrel export and importation would still exist, also depending on how long the job takes to do, a long delay.
Mike.
  
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Premod70
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #31 - May 24th, 2019 at 8:21pm
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Mike, on your paper patching trials were you patching to bore diameter or groove? I would think a bore size paper patch bullet just barely seated in the case would be the best practice next to a breech seated bullet.
  
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OLD TUCK
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #32 - May 24th, 2019 at 9:40pm
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I have used Grease Groove bullets Pan Lubed and then sized to Paper Patch size. And loaded with Black and shot them with success. The Bullets were Postell at 535 Grs. with 30/1 Alloy. Shot them in a Sharps Borchardt at 1000 Yds. Shot very well. Load was 8 Grs. 4759 and 100 Grs. of Elephant Fg. light
compression. Bullets were sized to Diameter .452 which is the Bore Size in Sharps .45 Caliber original Barrels. Caliber was .45 x 2 & 7/8". In order to size the Postell down the Bullets needed to be greased so they would not distort. Also did this in a 33-40 Schoyen Muzzle loader and Muzzle Loaded
the Bullets and shot with a smokeless load of 4759. Surprise it shot well even though it was not supposed to. So there are options, and it does not take much effort to try them. HTH FITZ. OLD TUCK. Smiley
  
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Mick B
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #33 - May 25th, 2019 at 1:22am
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Premod
The paper patched bullets I used in the .40 cal were patched to bore size, they shot worse than my fixed loads, or my breech seated loads. I only fired about three targets with them and gave the rest away to a friend to try in his 40/65. To date he has not done so.
Old Tuck
I have given the PP idea a try a while ago without any success, even if it had shot as good as the greasers at the distance I was shooting, ie, 100 and 200 m I don't think it was worth the extra effort. Shooting PP bullets seems to be done mainly by shooters using .45 cal rifles at long range.
The two main advantages I see with PP bullets is the better aerodynamics, and the fact that they cab be swaged from lead wire or castings, giving you a bullet perfectly round and with no voids. A long time ago when I had a 45/70 and a 45/90 I costed the equipment I would require to swage bullets, this was from Corbin in the US, I think the final tally was in the region of A$1000, and that was quite a long time ago.
Mike.
  
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OLD TUCK
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #34 - May 25th, 2019 at 9:13pm
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Mick B yes but I was just trying to get Loaded ammo in the Paper Patch mode.
It seemed to me that Pan Lubing an oversize Grease Grove Bullet and then sizing it too Bore Size would be a lot easier than actually using Paper Patch.
One of the drawbacks with Paper Patch in my mind is that Paper is somewhat abrasive. And I was quite surprised at how well they shot. With the Schoyen using Bore Size bullets and Smokeless Powder, and Muzzle Loading as well again I was surprised at how well it shot. Not supposed to. Anyhow I hope this can add to what we know and can expect. FITZ. OLD TUCK. Smiley
  
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Mick B
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #35 - May 26th, 2019 at 1:58am
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Old Tuck
I think M/L pp bullets got a bad rep for a couple of reasons. Firstly as you said the paper is abrasive but the other probelm with the old M/L target rifles was that many had shallow rifling and the steel used in the barrels was not chrome molly as used today.
I have no doubt also that these target rifles saw considerable use compared to hunting rifles.
I have a friend in Sydney who has an original Rigby .45 cal M/L cased target rifle, the rifling is hardly visible. The loading data is inside the case lid and from memory it used a 550 gr PP bullet ahead of  ? gr's of Curtis & Harvey powder.
According to the owner of this rifle he has shot some good targets with it at long range, modern full bore shooting is his hobby, so he knows what he's doing.
Mike.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #36 - May 26th, 2019 at 3:07am
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FWIW,
The abrasiveness of paper is overestimated - it most certainly won't be as abrasive as a GG bullet with some sand/dust in the grease fired down the bore...
If you shoot on an open range with dry, dusty conditions, this is pretty realistic.  A PP on the other hand, won't accumulate such contamination.  I'm still shooting PP in some orginal military rifles that had nothing else go through, and they're still going strong, no issues at all.  Improper cleaning & maintenance usually is the big issue.
And with modern steels, you might see some wear when the next generation of shooters is going to use that rifle...
  
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #37 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:11am
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Mike, this is from a friend I know that has been shooting PP for decades, I know very little about PP bullets. First a question, do you clean the barrel after every shot with the PP bullets. My friend swears the barrel must be spotless before every shot, I guess that's why the shooters over here use the bore pigs and other cleaning devices. Also, the alloy should be in the 20-1 area, some use 16-1 with success. With black powder obturation is your friend but can be trouble to find a happy balance, good luck.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #38 - May 26th, 2019 at 11:08am
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With PP bullets, the cleaner and drier the bore the better they will shoot.  I clean between shots and if the last patch I push doesn't come out pure white then I do another one.  Paper patch bullets are more sensitive to bore condition than grease grooved bullets.

Chris.
  
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Mick B
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #39 - May 26th, 2019 at 8:52pm
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MartiniBelgian
I seem to have read somewhere that Harry Pope said that shooting 5000 PP bullets through one of his barrels would see off the "gilt edged accuracy" and they you couldn't live long enough to do that using grease groove bullets. Whether or not he said this could just be folk lore of course.
Everybody I know who shoots GG bullets for target shooting is careful to keep them clean, and all the advice I have read advises those loading ammo for hunting to seat the bullets deep enough to cover all the grease grooves.
Premod70
I have only fired about 200 PP bullets in my life, as mentioned previously our club shoots mostly at 100 m so at that distance I would be surprised if PP was any better than greasers, even if they were every bit as good is it worth the extra effort. As I mentioned before I see the main advantages as being one of aerodynamics at long range and the fact that they can be cold swaged.
Chris.
I cast all   my bullets from 20-1 as do a lot of other shooters I know, I would think that when shooting PP bullets something a bit softer may be an advantage, but really I have no idea.
As for cleaning between shots I have to disagree to some extent as it is well documented that at the Creedmore M/L shoot between the Irish and American teams the Irish were not cleaning between shots while the Americans were. I understand that the Irish challenged the American team to a later match without cleaning between shots and the Irish team won.
I was also under the impression that they lost the first match because one of their team put a shot on an American target and that was what cost them the match.
If anyone has any information contrary to what I have written I am quite happy to be corrected.
Mike.
PS I know that with breech seating fouling buildup in the breech area may mean you have to clean between shots in order to chamber the next round.
  
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #40 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:12pm
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Mike, I don't know about the Irish but the rifles around this neck of the woods do very well with the pristine bores and the PP bullets. I am of the opinion the PP bullets excel due to the deep depth the bullets extend into the barrel, most are seated in the case maybe a 16th of an inch and with obturation the bullet compares to the breech seated greasers.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #41 - May 26th, 2019 at 9:18pm
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Mike, I believe that cleaning vs not in the matches had more to do with the rifling styles. Rigby ratchet and Henry rifling shoot cleaner than our "Enfield" type.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #42 - May 27th, 2019 at 12:19am
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According to Perry's book, which was written during the peak of long range match shooting with PP bullets, the Americans shooting PP bullets all cleaned very carefully between shots.

Regardless, I'm 100% confident of my assertion Smiley.  I've shot thousands of PP bullets from 100 yards up to 1000 yards and it's pretty clear that the cleaner and dryer you get the bore, the happier you'll be, at least in cartridge guns.

The style of rifling makes a huge difference too.  A friend of mine cuts his own rifling and uses a style with no hard corners.  His takes way less effort to get clean between shots.

Most Creedmoor shooters were using quite hard alloys back in the day.  14:1 and 12:1 were not unheard of.  Everyone I know, for long range anyway, uses 16:1.  For blunter bullets though, you can certainly go a fair bit softer.  I have a 500gr Creedmoor style bullet that is excellent at 20:1 for instance. 

Chris.
  
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Mick B
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #43 - May 27th, 2019 at 10:34am
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Chris
In the old days of long range shooting in the US how long was it before everybody went to cartridge guns. I agree completely that breech load loaders benefit from cleaning between shots if you are not shooting in an event where there time constraints.
When shooting BPMS most just blow tube, I tried blow tubing in my 45/90 but it just made me dizzy.  My 45/90 shot better if cleaned between shots as our 100 and 200 m comps at the club have no time limit.
I wonder if you checked the results of any of the big BP long range shoots held in the US what would be the percentage of the shooters are using PP bullets. Probably more importantly, what were the winners using.
Mike.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: On the horns of a dilemma
Reply #44 - May 27th, 2019 at 2:18pm
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The simple answer is that not very many people shoot long range matches in America with paper patched bullets.  It's a shame because that's the type of projectile that is historically correct for Creedmoor shooting.  I would say that at least 90% and probably more shoot grease grooved bullets.  For the last couple of years I have shot quite a few more grease grooved bullets than patched.  This is mainly because of the time constraints of modern matches.  I think that if the time limits were relaxed you'd see more PP shooters.  The only real trick to them, I think, is managing bore condition and that's where grease grooved bullets have a big edge. 

I am going to spend more time again with patched bullets this year, mainly because I really enjoy them.

Chris.
  
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