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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) bullet diameter advice (Read 1202 times)
Mick B
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bullet diameter advice
Jun 10th, 2019 at 2:55am
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I have been shooting my 40-65 breech seated because of a chamber issue it has. The problem I have is the smallest bullet mould I have casts a .408" bullet and the breech seater I use is of the push type and requires a hammer to get the .408" bullet to seat into the bore.
I'm considering getting a slightly smaller diameter bullet from Accurate Moulds,  like the one listed # 40-430J and in .407" or .406 diameter to make seating easier. My B/S load is around 71 to 74 gr of 2f, if I get the mould to drop a .406" dia bullet would this bump up OK?. My bore dia is .400"and groove size is  .408".
Mike.
PS  I don't want to go to the expense of getting a lever type breech seater as once my chamber problem is sorted I willbe going back to shooting fixed.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #1 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 4:01am
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Mick,

For easier breechseating you'll need a tapered bullet - bore diameter up front, and only the bottom bands groove diameter - but I'll let the experts explain it to you, they are more knowledgeable than I am.

Gert
  
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Quarter_Bore
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #2 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 7:44am
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I wrote an article about this 20 years ago for the Journal. (Or whatever it's name was then)The solution I have used for that problem is to size down the front of a cylinderical bullet (such as you have) to .002" under groove diameter and just leave the back 2 bands a little over groove diameter. (You don't need to size the fronts down to bore diameter.) This makes them seat much easier and they still shoot extremely well. The first time I tried it I got a 5 shot group under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. I just fed the bullets in the sizer upside down and made a stop so the bullets would all be sized down for the same length.
Of course to breech seat you will want your bullet alloy at 25/1 lead/tin, or so, with no antimony or linotype.
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2019 at 7:55am by Quarter_Bore »  
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OLD TUCK
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #3 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:38am
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I suspect that you are not getting very good groups with that seating procedure. One thing I learned a long time ago with Single Shot rifles and Lead bullets was that having to drive or bump a Bullet multiple times created
multiple different bullets. Every time you Bump lead bullets seating them they change in Diameter and shoot to a different point. Breech Seating should be done in ONE neat push! If you have to push or bump it a second time the bullet should be Shot into the dirt. I have found also that if your Bullets are a Soft alloy they will bump up to groove size with Black powder.
And they can be quite a bit under size. I shoot original Sharps rifles in 40 and 45 caliber. And the bullets are 25/1, and 30/1 Lead/Tin alloy. The bullets are BORE size and shoot super. Sharps Bore and Groove are .451/.452, and Groove size .461/462 that IS A .01 in diameter. This is remember in Original
Sharps Barrels. I have original Sharps Paper Patch bullets and they measure
.451 Diameter and seat easily and shoot super. So what I do is cast bullets that measure .457/.458 and Pan lube then and then run them through a .452 lube die. They then can be seated if thats what I want or made into fixed ammo in the case. I do have a 40-70 SS and have a healed bullet from Lyman about 90 years ago that cast .406 Base right up to the front dirt catcher band and they shoot really fine. You did not mention your Alloy,
Hard alloy does create some issues, you have already found one, Breech seating can be handled different way's. Tapered bullet, Reamed throat to
accept the bullet shape, and a softer alloy to make it seat easier. HTH
Regards, FITZ. OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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Mick B
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #4 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:40am
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Gert
I have a BACO Money bullet that has a reduced front band that measures .402" all the rest are .408", it shoots fairly well, but as stated, needs a hammer to seat it with the push seater I have.
I figured that a bullet with a smaller diameter like .407" or .406" might be easier to seat. I considered getting a Lee bullet sizer at .406" or .407" but this would be a custom order and there is a bit of a waiting list for the custom sizer's, I've checked.
Quarter bore.
The smallest sizer I have is .408" and as mentioned above, a custom sizer from Lee is a wait of about 6 to 8 weeks.
Up until now I have been shooting fixed ammo and have not had the need to reduce the diameter of my bullets below .408".
The alloy I usually use is 20-1. Back to my original question, will a bullet of 20-1 alloy with a diameter of either .406", or possibly.407" bump up sufficiently to seal the bore ?.
That Accurate Moulds bullet #40-430J looks like a good design and could be made in either diameter I imagine.
I will only be shooting at 100 and 200 m so long range accuracy,ie, 500 m, is not a requirement.
Mike.
  
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kkid66
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #5 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:54am
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Take a look at the 46-507b mold that Tom made for my 45-70. He got it just as shown for my tight Krieger bbl. I can slide them in by thumb and they are accurate at 350 yds with no leading in a 20/1 mix. I have several bore size bullet molds that shoot well to 1000yds.
  
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kkid66
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #6 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:15am
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I think Tom would make the 40-430j in a tapered design. If it were mine I would want the base one or two bands to be groove + .001. As many bands at bore or bore +.001 as you like. Do you have fast enough twist for that bullet?
  
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oneatatime
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #7 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:17am
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Mike, how much powder were you putting behind your bullets when you seated them in the case?
  
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craigd
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #8 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 12:37pm
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Can you seat a bullet easier after the chamber and throat are cleaned well, just a thought if black powder fouling starts getting in the way. I remember you were having a chamber problem, but can you finger seat a .408" bullet in the fired breech seat case? Only wondering because it seems to me you could end up with specialty mold that ends up not being used much. Yes, I'd think an undersized bullet is shootable, but it may take time and supplies just to be an okay shooter.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #9 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 12:41pm
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[quote author=5672787044591B0 link=1560149703/4#4 date=1560174039]Gert
I have a BACO Money bullet that has a reduced front band that measures .402" all the rest are .408"

Mick,
for a breechseated bullet, you'll need only hte base band, maybe the one in front too to be at groove size, the rest cam be bore size , with maybe a single band just a wee bit bigger.  Otherwise, you'll run into the inconsistent seating issue - if you cannot seat the bullet with a single push, accuracy will suffer.  And no, a .406 or .407 won't reduce the seating effort sufficiently to solve the issue.
  
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ratseye
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #10 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 2:29pm
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I shoot a BACO 409400M5 in my 40-70 fixed but seated out to touch the lands and that is pretty far out. It has been very accurate. ratseye
  
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Mick B
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #11 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 8:06pm
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Ratseye
The bullet I use mostly is BACOs JIM409400M4 so far this has shot the best, both as fixed, and breech seated. My fixed load is 60 gr of 2f.
Martinibelgian
If I go with the Accurate Moulds bullet I guess they would be prepared to make it to any dimensions I like, so far I have not contacted them until I have as much information as I can get.
Craigd
As I only shoot black powder I always clean between shots.
Because the neck area of my chamber is so oversize a .412" diameter bullet is a loose fit in a fired case, you can just imagine how loose the .408" bullet is, this is the reason for my accuracy woes with fixed ammo.
Oneatatime
My usual fixed load with the tapered BACO bullet is between 60 and 62 gr of 2f.
KKid66
The barrel I have is a GM and the twist is 16-1 I believe, though I have never checked it.
Oldtuck
I figures that having to use a hammer on the push seater wasn't a great idea, hence my questions as to whether a smaller diameter bullet like .406" would bump up. From what I have read so far even a bullet of a diameter of .400" or .401" would.
My push seater has a cartridge case on it, so bullet alignment is assured when seating the projectile.
Thank you all for the suggestions, if I get my chamber problem fixed I won't need to breech seat but I'm still looking for a gunsmith here to do the job, hopefully a gunsmith that already has a 40-65 reamer, so don't have to buy one that will only be used once.
Mike.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #12 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 8:54pm
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Mike, did you say you had tried less powder, like 51, 52, 53, or 54 grains? You're not trying to knock a ram down at 500 meters just punch several holes in paper in the same place at 100 or 200.
  
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Mick B
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #13 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 12:12am
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Oneatatime
From memory ( shaky ) the lightest load I've tried was about 54 gr this under the Money Bullet with a .060" LDPE wad on top of the powder. , everything I have read suggests that the base of the bullet should be touching the wad which in turn, should be seated on the powder column, no air space whatsoever. If I load 55 gr of 2f under the bullet it will have quite a jump to reach the rifling, this combined with my loose chamber seems like a recipe for failure.
Mike.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: bullet diameter advice
Reply #14 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 1:19am
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Mike, the reason I asked is that the most accurate load I have found (after much experimentation) in my 40-65 Browning is 54 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss under a .060 wad. My 400 grain .410 bullet is touching the wad and the wad is touching the powder - just. The powder is dumped from the scale directly into a funnel on the case. I also use Federal Large Pistol primers with a punched circle of tracing paper under the powder. It was more accurate with the bullet not touching the rifling. Of course I am resting the sweet spot of the barrel on the sticks.
  
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