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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR (Read 1145 times)
KFW
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Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Jun 26th, 2019 at 8:36am
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Before I talk myself out of another .40 I need to ask:

If someone was to start with the basic .405 brass how involved would it be to size it down for .408 bullets? What die would you use a 40-70ss? Then what chambering reamer would one use. The goal here is another option to say the 40-82 silhouette from 45-90 brass. I am planning my next Ballard build for BPCR long range shoots. I just love the 40-85 Ballard caliber, but acquiring proper brass and reamer is down right pricey. Have absolutely no interest in the 40-65. Any other thoughts on wildcatting a cartridge that approximates the 40-85 without overspending would be appreciated. Plan is to use a 14" twist and 425 creedmore gg bullet.
thanks
kw
kw
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #1 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 9:44am
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Acquiring 405 brass will be the problem. Hornady has discontinued it. Pacific tool made a reamer for the 40/70 SS to use the Hornady brass but if the brass is not available it matters little. The 405 brass needs to be neck turned to fit a standard 40/70SS chamber. I know, I'm doing some now.

The 40-82 Silhouette would be a better choice. 45-90 brass is available and is easily sized down to make the cases. In fact the 40-82 Silhouette is almost a dead ringer for the original 40-65 Ballard cartridge, not the 40-63 or 40-70 but the earlier cartridge. Check it out. It would certainly be appropriate for a Ballard rifle.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #2 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 10:39am
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.408" seems a bit small for a .40-70SS? Or is that because you already have the barrel and it has a groove diameter for .408" bullets? My .40-70SS is a .410" groove, and I use .40-70SS Lyman die set in loading it. I also load for the .40-63/70 Ballard and use the same die set to reload fired brass.
I've used my .40-65 Win. die set to neck size the same .405 Win. brass to make up ammo for my .40-63 Ballard and .40-70SS, but only after fire forming it first.
The .405 brass from Hornady is out of production, but it was a little small on rim diameter for use in my Ballard .40-63 anyway. I use it, but have to be careful chambering cartridges to ensure the rim doesn't slip past the extractor.
As for the .40-85, I use 9.3x74R brass expanded to .40 caliber and it's the perfect length as is. But it also has slightly smaller rims, and need to be careful to not let the rim slip past the extractor while chambering. But it works extremely well, and shoots great. If I was starting with a new build I'd simply have it chambered for .40-85 Ballard, but have the rim cut for the 9.3x74R brass size. Then it would be perfect.
  

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KFW
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #3 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 11:05am
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Deadeye and Marlinguy

you have offered good food for thought, I have not bought barrel yet, working on action now. I will be able to fit the extractor to any rim I end up with. The 40-82 shil. or the 9.3x74R seems to be the most economical way to go and get me where I want to be. My immediate concern is the chamber reamer...can one be rented or must one have one made? Did not see one listed from Elk ridge or 4D rentals for either choice.
A true pity the .405 brass is not available. I love these large 40's and every build I do becomes quite involved before it's over. I could send barrel to someone who does have a reamer after I thread and fit barrel though.
regards
kw
  
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beltfed
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #4 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:26pm
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It is noted that Winchester has made another run of the
M1895, in cal 405 Win.
It may very well be that due to that, Hornady might
make another run of their excellent 405 w brass
beltfed/arnie
  
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Reverend Al
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #5 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:40pm
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I was going to echo Marlinguy's suggestion to use 9.3x74R brass.  I use it and form shooter cases for my Ballard Pacific in .40-90.  In my case the rims seem to get enough of a grip to extract well, but in your case as he mentioned you could get your build chambered to the dimensions of the 9.3x74r rims.

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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #6 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 2:40pm
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KW,
I did a 40-82 W 1:16 in a Hepburn a few seasons back, made the reamer and just have to modify the rim on a 45-70 slightly - I tried my hand at extruding 45-70 brass - it's a shooter but comes with a lot of extra effort.

I read about the Crossno 40-82 and before I came to my senses bought that reamer from Manson.  I'll use Starline 45-90 brass for this - (keeping it simple) I'm changing to a 14 twist, gain, LH  in this to make it different.  I'm doing a Ballard for the class demo this fall so this will be my subject.

Just my personal opinion, these are exceptional cartridges and to 1025 Yards I've had very good results with my first 40-82.  I'm loading some 444gr. Nasa for a shoot next weekend, preliminaries look good, but this will be my first go with this bullet.

I grabbed a few boxes of 405's at a show a while back, over-priced but I got them  Angry  If Hornady goes with another run I'd buy several and then I'll look at building something based on this.
Greg
  

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KFW
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #7 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 3:46pm
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Greg
sorry you missed the Q shoot. I picked up one of Rodneys Ballard kits to build for next years go at it. I surely want a caliber to reach out to 1000 yds and buck some wind, my 45-90's do it, but the 40's got me hooked! Now wondering who has or can make the Crossno spec'd 40-82 silhouette reamer? Which reamer did you buy for your 40-82....or did i misunderstand-- you made one? What barrel are you using with a gain twist? I think you are on to something here!
thanks
kim
  
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #8 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 4:01pm
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Kim,
Dave Manson makes the Crossno reamer and like I said I pushed the go button before I gave it any real thought... spontaneous purchase... no regrets though.  something different - it will be a second 40-82, how many does a guy need???  The gain twist... it's old - but probably a passing fad, just like smokeless powder  Grin but it intrigues me - it's what I'm building on my version of the Robbins and Lawrence machine. 
If I was to buy another, I'd call Ron Smith at RKS  (403) 631 2405 and see if he'd build you one...
Greg
  

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"If you don't know what leever A does, then leever B... you Dumb@$$"  G.C. Tryon
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #9 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 6:26pm
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    My impression is that the BPSilhouette rules require a "bonafide" BP cartridge?  Maybe you could call it a 40-70?

CHRIS
RGChristensen
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #10 - Jun 26th, 2019 at 9:40pm
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The 40-82 silhouette is an approved cartridge. As I said previously it is almost a dead ringer for the 40-65 Ballard Everlasting, a 2.4" 40 caliber case with a 45/70 sized head and rim. The brass was thicker and the neck was .435" diameter, which is .005" larger than the later 40-63. If Dave Crossno had done some research and called his cartridge a 40-65 Ballard there never would have been any question. His business is still in operation and has the reamer and could chamber your barrel for you.
  
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KFW
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #11 - Jun 27th, 2019 at 8:36am
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Deadeye

what do you find is the approximate powder capacity of the 40-82 silhouette using 1 1/2f and say a 425+ gr. bullet?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #12 - Jun 27th, 2019 at 10:10am
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Reverend Al wrote on Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:40pm:
I was going to echo Marlinguy's suggestion to use 9.3x74R brass.  I use it and form shooter cases for my Ballard Pacific in .40-90.  In my case the rims seem to get enough of a grip to extract well, but in your case as he mentioned you could get your build chambered to the dimensions of the 9.3x74r rims.



Al, my 9.3x74r case extract flawlessly in my Pacific in .40-85. It's chambering that gives me fits. I have to be careful chambering a cartridge to ensure the rim doesn't slip past the extractor and then not allow the breech to close. I've gotten used to it happening, and have a technique of pushing the extractor forward with my thumb as I feed the cartridge into the chamber. But I'd prefer to not have to think about it.
I have a small number of cases made from .45 Basic brass that have the correct rim diameter, and I love using those! But they take a fair amount of forming to get them down to .40-85, and the 9.3x74r is super easy to form.

KFW,
I looked in the safe one day and realized that it was taken over by a variety of .40 caliber single shot rifles? I'm unsure how it happened as I didn't seek out .40 caliber rifles really. I think I'm at around 8 of them now in various .40's from the little .40-50SS to the .40-85 Ballard. Couple of .40-85's, a couple .40-65 WIn., several .40-63/70 Ballard, and a couple .40-50SS Rollers. They all shoot very well at distance.
The .40-50SS is a newer caliber for me, and I've been impressed with how well it works with smokeless powders. It's an anemic BP caliber, and I'd guess that's why it never made it back in the BP era. But it's like a .38-55 on steroids with smokeless. The advantage of a larger bullet, but a small capacity case that's much more efficient with smokeless than most of the larger capacity .40 caliber offerings.
  

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KFW
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #13 - Jun 27th, 2019 at 11:43am
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Marlin guy
I guess if I need to by a reamer I could go back to the 40-85 and have it made to the rim dia. of the  available 9.3x74r brass. I shoot my pacific in 40-85 alot and never found it lacking, but have not tried it out to 800 yds that the Quigley shoot offers, but if a 40-65 does it I am sure it will suffice. The  9.3x74r seems to be the easier to form also.....and least expensive which always seem to drive my builds. Your .40 count exceeds mine by qty of 4!  Wonder if someone has a used 40-85 reamer
they would sell.
I have time to mull all this good info over while machining the action and getting a barrel ordered.
best
kw
  
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beltfed
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Re: Starting with the .405 winchester for BPCR
Reply #14 - Jun 27th, 2019 at 12:32pm
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KFW,
I almost built a 40-82 Silhouette myself. However
after working with my little 40-65, I dropped the idea:
You said you have absolutely no interest in the 40-65W.
For which brass is available off the shelf or easily formed from 45-70s.
However:
Here are a couple pics on what this "little cartridge that can
do", even at Long range when loaded with the right bullet.
I did build a 40-72W(405Hornady cases) as seen in second pic, third from left.
But, my go to rifle, even at long range is my 40-65 Hiwall,
16 twist. 
I do contemplate, however building another 40-65 with 14 twist barrel...
  
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