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Schuetzendave .33 question
Jul 3rd, 2019 at 2:29am
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Dave, What does your ballistic wizardery say is the optimum bullet for a .338 that ends in a 17.5 inch twist? Thanks in advance. 
« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2019 at 3:24am by Schuetzenmiester »  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #1 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 11:29am
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Bob,
The nose shape makes a difference in my program. Are we talking a Pope style nose, like Joe's 33 mold?

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #2 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 4:29pm
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Bob:

Are we talking a cast bullet .33 or a .338 Lapua jacketed bullet?
Makes big difference due to velocity imposed on the bullet.
I need the bullet diameter, length of bullet and weight for the .338 bullet you would like me to assess.
I have no data for .33 bullets - since I have not wore out my .32 rifles.

Dave

  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #3 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 10:20pm
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Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      225      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.195      Inches            
Barrel Twist      17.5      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.09                  

Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      225      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.195      Inches            
Barrel Twist      16      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.30                  

Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      225      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.195      Inches            
Barrel Twist      14      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.70                  


Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      242      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.248      Inches            
Barrel Twist      17.5      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.04      
           
Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      242      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.248      Inches            
Barrel Twist      16      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.24                  

Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      242      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.248      Inches            
Barrel Twist      14      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.62                  


« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2019 at 10:27pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #4 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 10:26pm
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Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      200      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.062      Inches            
Barrel Twist      17.5      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.35                  

Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      200      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.062      Inches            
Barrel Twist      16      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.62                  


Caliber      0.338      Inches            
Bullet Weight      200      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.062      Inches            
Barrel Twist      14      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1500      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      2.12                  


Maximum weight bullet for your 17.5 twist is probably a 195 grain.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #5 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 1:57am
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Bob,
Here are a few designs and the stability rates for 17.5 twist rate.

1.5 is fully stable, 1.4 is usually ok, it may tip a little, sometimes.

  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #6 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 2:00am
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The designs, to go with them.

  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #7 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 2:45am
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Thanks, I never thought about putting in the Pope style Hoch bullet I am shooting.
I guessed the gain twist ended at 17.5.  That is the same as Ron came up with using a cleaning rod at Spokane one year. If he had it at the shop, it would be easy to know for sure, but…..

I shoot it at about 1425 to 1450, but it has been years since it was shot over a chronograph.

It weighs 213.9 average cast 20:1 the last batch I weighed when we were talking about pot and mold temp controls last spring.

The OAL is .996” and bands take up .717” of that.

Base band is .345 with my calipers.
Next .342
.340
.338
.337
.337
.335
The meplat is about .203" the way I measure eyeballing the caliper.

A Schoyen mold came with it that was smaller diameter.  I haven’t cast any for years. It did not shoot very well breech seated.  I used it for muzzle loading. The Hoch is too big to ML.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #8 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 2:50am
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Thanks for the designs Frank. I'll take a close up of the bullet in the daylight tomorrow and post it.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #9 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 2:54am
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BTW Dave, I haven't shot enough to wear one out either. Not sure who wore it out, but Harry fixed it in 1903  Cheesy
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #10 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 6:31am
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The numbers for my bullets were for pointer bullets but the flat nose of the same length would also work.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #11 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 11:44am
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Here is the 214 gr Hoch picture.

How much improvement could one expect shortening this bullet enough to drop 20 grains?
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #12 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 12:20pm
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Bob,
Are you having tipping problems, with your Hoch bullet?

Are you considering shorting the Hoch?

Is this 17.5 twist rifle, your Pope that you've always had?

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #13 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 6:44pm
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Ken, how are you arriving at 1.24 and 1.30?

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #14 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 2:17am
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Ken,
As I've shown in my post, the shape of the nose, can make a big difference. The Miller formula, is based on a very short nose. Somewhere between 2 calibers and a wad cutter, by my comparisons to the Goeffery-Kolbe program that I use.

If you can give me the nose length, from the point that the ogive starts, to the tip of the bullet and the diameter of the meplat, I can give you a corrected SG.

The spitzer ogive, moves the CG rearward and decreases the twist rate needed to stabilize the bullet.

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #15 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 2:58pm
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These are the corrected SG's, for those bullets. Both are within limits for 16 twist (ie above 1.4).

I used a .03 meplat as, I'm sure they don't come to a needle point.

Last, is the 1.248 in your 14.92 twist.

My 33 is 15 twist and I had Brooks make a 1.300 long mold for it. It stabilizes fine, w/o tipping.

Frank
« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2019 at 3:04pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #16 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:06pm
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This is the bullet. Brooks didn't make it as I designed it. It was to small on the front bands and the meplat was to large.

I only shot it a few times as my cylindrical (no taper) bullet out shot it but, it shot fairly well w/o tipping. The I shot this target at Modesto, while Barry Darr, chronoed it on his M43. The grid is 1/4", it's a .60 group, as I remember @ 100 yd. I didn't watch conditions and shot as fast as I could, as I had several more bullets to test that day.

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #17 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 9:07pm
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frnkeore wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 12:20pm:
Bob,
Are you having tipping problems, with your Hoch bullet?

Are you considering shorting the Hoch?

Is this 17.5 twist rifle, your Pope that you've always had?

Frank


The bullet has always slightly tipped at 200 yards shooting its best.  Bill Crane told my years ago that lots of them do that shooting premium accuracy, so I never worried about it.

Yes, it is the Pope.  Biggest problem is the stock.  It takes a lot of care and effort to shoot 250s.

The next issue is all the lubes I have tried need to dry for a year to shoot those 250s.

I am thinking of making a bullet that carries less lube.  It may as well be optimized for length, ect. too. 

It only shoots at 200 in ASSRA and ISSA and 100 & 200 CBA.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #18 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 9:21am
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Could just be the picture but I do see tipping on Franks target and a bit of tip often times does seem to shoot the best BobZ. Often times the backer being used will make a bullet appear to be tipping. Cloroplast is known for that as is a backer with allot of pre-existing holes or one that is not plumb.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #19 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 3:09pm
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John, That tip looks about the same as my Hoch bullet.  I does it nearly every shot when it is shooting those itsy bitsy teeny weeny little groups. 

I wonder if anyone else has ever found year old lubes shoots a lot tighter groups? I'm if volume will make any difference?
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #20 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 3:20pm
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Re. "Year old lube shoots better"
Look at the formula for the lube if you can.
It may be a sign that there is too much of
a low vapor pressure component. 
as in liquid components that may be evaporating
such as light oils
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #21 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 3:28pm
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beltfed wrote on Jul 8th, 2019 at 3:20pm:
Re. "Year old lube shoots better"
Look at the formula for the lube if you can.
It may be a sign that there is too much of
a low vapor pressure component. 
as in liquid components that may be evaporating
such as light oils
beltfed/arnie

It is with all the lubes I have tried, both homemade and commercial. Jerry's Javalina, I think that is its name, works the best fresh, but not for more than a few shots. Dell lube would not shoot at all.  Target at 200 looked like a shotgun pattern  Cry
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #22 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 3:42pm
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Here's what you need for tipping, Bob.

Again, shot at Modesto, but, with my shorter, cylindrical bullet In this case, it's because the bullet was going through the transonic zone.

The next, is with .5 gr more powder, shot in Oregon. Hard to tell if they're tipping. LOL

BTW, both shot with Javalina lube.

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #23 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 11:14pm
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Tipping isn't a problem Frank.  My first 250 was shot in the lower left quadrant of the 25 ring, except for 2 shots I shot in the upper right when I got scared about the edge of the 25 ring  Roll Eyes.  The second hit too close to the edge at 1 o'clock, so I went back to my old hold to finish up shooting near the 7 o'clock edge .  Lots of teeny little groups after I figured out the secret.  That took a couple years, as I recall.

20:1 shoots best with new bullets and new lube and a couple tenths less powder, than 30:1 best but with year or 2 old lube, 30:1 shoots just as well as 20 and the powder charge isn't critical.

I'm just not sure how to make a stickier, drier lube than Javelina or if I just have too much lube on the bullet.  If I make a bullet that carries less lubed, I'll make it a little shorter and lighter.

I remember a 195 gr Saeco I borrowed from a friend to try in my .32-40.  It was fantastic.  I bought one that must have been a new cherry.  It was, maybe 5 grains lighter. It did not shoot worth a hoot!  I finally talked him out of it.  He wasn't using it anyway. Hope I'm not headed down that path again!  Undecided

When I first got that rifle, I wondered if I had made a mistake.  I called Buck Emmert and talked to him about it.  He  and Dorothy were well known for shooting Pope rifles in those days.  I don't recall anyone shooting a lot of 250s in those days.   Does anyone know if they shot a lot of them?  Seems like high 240s was the norm in the late 80 and into the 90s.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #24 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:03pm
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The arch of the bullets flight BobZ would also make it impossible to go through the target point on. If it shoots as good as you say you just might be missing something that makes it appear to be not quite right in your own mind when there is actually nothing wrong with it.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #25 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 6:58pm
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Shooting 1400 to 1450  the sight adjustments  from 100 to 200 are not enough to indicate enough arc to notice the approach angle on the target.  BTW, it only shoots that radical stock that well when I am practiced up. It was not easy to figure out that year old lube is the key to precision; without it, the others are irrelevant.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #26 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 8:46pm
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From muzzle to 200 what do think your actual arc might be BobZ? My 33-47 Bresien liked a 1475 fps average velocity the best, the bullet a 234 grain Mos Spitzer but I don't now remember the length. I believe the barrel was a 15 twist Bresien and it also had a left hand twist and it was the most consistent rifle I have yet owned to date.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #27 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 2:24am
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I didn't get the Windows conversion for Ballistic Explorer because I wasn't using it enough.  I don't recall the midrange on it, but I don't believe  it would be much more than a foot.  The arc would not be much. The incoming angle would not be more than about 2/10s of a degree.  Hardly visible to the naked eye  Roll Eyes  I have never thought about trying to calculate the tip angle, but it is obviously a lot more than that.

I have never shot it much at 100, just a few shots at CBA matches. It does not display tipping there, at least not enough that I have noticed it.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #28 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 2:36am
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JLouis wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:03pm:
If it shoots as good as you say you just might be missing something that makes it appear to be not quite right in your own mind when there is actually nothing wrong with it.


That first 250 with 8 shots between the 2 and the 7 o'clock edge of the 25 ring and the 2 I shot at 1 o'clock in the 25 ring when I started to lose my confidence in holding that 3/4" group in the switchy 7.5 mph wind, was published in  the Journal in about 1992, I believe.

The part that is wrong, is lube less than a year old will not hold the 25 ring. 1 to 2 year old lube will shoot most into a 1 hole group like that 1st 250.  At 3 years, the lube is too dry not holding 1 hole any longer.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #29 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:15am
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The lube issue is indeed Interesting and one I have not experiencd myself. I also don't have a clue what the remedy might be freshly lubed has always worked out to be the better for myself.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #30 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:10pm
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If the arch of the bullets was the reason for "tipping"
they would all have vertical oval holes, not random directions.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #31 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:11pm
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Opps, it should read  "arc" -- trajectory
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #32 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:42pm
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JLouis wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:15am:
The lube issue is indeed Interesting and one I have not experiencd myself. I also don't have a clue what the remedy might be freshly lubed has always worked out to be the better for myself.

How do you know  year old bullets wouldn't be better?  Undecided
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #33 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 10:58am
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I have shot them before BobZ maybe some even over a year old. There was a time back in early 2000 that I would cast and lube enough during the off season to last me through the year. And there were a few times I would still have some that would carry over into the next. I would also shoot them in the order as cast and also a means to keep track. I then moved on to casting the same but not lubing when I started using a lube pump and would lube them the night before or the day of the match. I personally always felt these freshly lubed consistently shot the best and at the time I was using Dell59C. In 2010 I had the lower row bones of removed from my right wrist and that ended my lube pump days. I then had to move onto pan lubing around that point in time and I also started using 75% Javelina Schuetzen Lube cut with 25% Dell59C and that is still what I am using today. I also tried a multitude of lubes starting back in 1998 doing lube experiment outings but none of them worked out as well for me.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #34 - Jul 26th, 2019 at 2:23am
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All the bullets listed are longer than mine which is .996” OAL with bands taking up .717” of that. Any ideas on how long a bullet will reduce the tipping at 1400 fps?  I'm shooting 14.25 4227 in a Ballard which should be plenty in a Ballard, eh?

I noticed today shooting CBA  there didn't seem to be any tipping at 100 yards, most shots held the 10 ring with new lube.  That wasn't possible at 200 in better conditions.

I'm beginning to think the tipping makes the lube issue more critical.  Too bad I never shot 100 ASSRA  Embarrassed 

Edit:  I have a target on lighter paper I just examined that was shot a couple months ago with slightly darker lube than was shot today. There is evidence of tipping.  10 shots at 100 yds produced 9 shots in a single hole .538" wide and .274" high with a wide single bullet flyer centered .290" from the edge of the 9 shot hole.

At 200 yds the next 10 shots were 9 in about 1.75" with a flyer opening to 3". The next 10  shots were about 4" at 200 yds and less concentrated in the center.   This is typical of the lube issues.  With good year old lube, this rifle has shot quite a few 10 shot groups under 1" at 200 yds.

I calculated the angles.  At 100 yds, the tipping is approximately 2.5 degrees.  At 200 yards, it is just under 5 degrees. I only had one hole to measure at 100, but most of the shots at 200 were individual hits and the measurement was consistent.  The  angle originated around the clock face without a predominate entrance direction.
« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2019 at 4:16am by Schuetzenmiester »  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #35 - Jul 26th, 2019 at 12:28pm
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BobZ I am not sure what might be going on. You should very easily be able to fully stabilize a bullet up to 1.014 in length. Not knowing your cleaning methods could you possibly be removing all of the pre-lube seasoning every time you clean?
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #36 - Jul 26th, 2019 at 1:11pm
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I clean with a few patches of Birchwood Casey bore cleaner Then use G96 to oil the bore. 

Maybe I just need to schedule my shooting a year in advance so the lube will be in prime condition. 

In top form, it shoots much better than Pope guaranteed  Shocked  Maybe if more shooters shot tippy bullets, they would have tighter groups confirming my experience and I shouldn't worry about it?

Undecided
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #37 - Jul 26th, 2019 at 1:15pm
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BTW, Jerry's Javelina shoots the best freshly applied so far quite a few I have tried, but I only get about 20 shots before it starts to open up. Dell59C scattered the bullets off paper at 200 yds.
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #38 - Jul 26th, 2019 at 1:16pm
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Bob,
Go back and look at the targets I post on page 2.

The tipping isn't a result of twist, it is because of the buffeting occurring, while bullet is in the transonic range. Although your tipping isn't as sever as mine, I suspect that your tipping is happening for the same reason.

Your bullet is plenty short for your twist rate so, go to 14.8 to 15.0 gr or drop the charge to 13.5. In my posted targets, there is no other change but, .5 gr change from 13.0 to 13.5 in the powder charge and I haven't had tipping at that load since. Also, when I built that rifle, there was no data for it (33 ELCO Max) so, I started at 11 gr of 4227 with a borrow PJ bullet that was 1.21 long (my bullet is 1.19) and I didn't have tipping at those lower velocity's either.

Later that day that I shot the tipped target, I shot the 5 five shot group match @ 100 yards, I averaged .53, with the small group of .33, again with no tipping with the +.5 gr load.

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #39 - Jul 26th, 2019 at 5:07pm
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BobZ my 33-47 Bresien 15 twist barrel liked 14.7 grains of H-108 and a 134 grain Mos Spitzer was being used at the time. 300MP provides pretty much the results and I found 4227 to be one of the most inconsistent powders that I spent allot of time experimenting with.
  
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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #40 - Jul 26th, 2019 at 7:26pm
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I haven't chrono'd this since the mid 90s.  I should probably do that.  I just looked at the old Lyman manual.  It had 14 hrs 4227 as max at about 1300 fps.  I may have my old black powder velocities mixed up with my 33-47 memory  Undecided
  

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Re: Schuetzendave .33 question
Reply #41 - Jul 27th, 2019 at 11:40am
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Might be worth the effort BobZ.
  
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