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john d
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smokeless powder substitute types
Jul 7th, 2019 at 2:51pm
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Gentlemen

Following the advice on this and other Forums I have been using
Hodgdon 4198 and Alliant Unique in my Pedersoli Sharps 45/70.

A problem has now arisen, the 4198 is no longer allowed to be imported into the UK.

Alliant Reloder 7 has been suggested as having a similar burn rate.

No point in my trying to work up loads in a powder that  will not be available in the future.

Has anyone any experience  with Reloder 7 or have any other suggestions, (other than Unique which i am already working with).

Many thanks

John Dines

  
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Premod70
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #1 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 5:04pm
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RL7 is a good powder and you can expect results similar to 4198.
  
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john d
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #2 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 11:58am
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Thank you pre mod 70. since there are no other comments I assume re loader 7 is not much used but being the only substitute for 4198, of a similar burn rate, in the UK I guess it is due for a trial.

john D
  
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #3 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:37pm
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You're welcome John D, just be sure to start low and increase the charge accordingly, RL-7 is not a grain for grain substitute of 4198, good luck.
  
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uscra112
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #4 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 10:42pm
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Can you get Vihtavuori?  Their N125 is mighty close.
  
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john d
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #5 - Jul 12th, 2019 at 5:51am
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Thanks Guys. Currently Vitavouri is not one of the banned powders so I can give it a try as well as reloder 7.

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John D
  
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CptCurl
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #6 - Jul 12th, 2019 at 6:27am
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Why not use black powder?

Curl
  
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gunlaker
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #7 - Jul 12th, 2019 at 8:54am
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With respect to Reloder 7, you should shoot it over the chronograph if possible while developing a load.  A lot of the load data out there seems to be based on the powder as it was when it was made by Hercules.   I found this out a few years ago by using data from the cast bullet handbook ( the current version at the time ) while developing a load for my Marlin in .45-70.   I reached nearly max velocity with the start load.  I emailed Alliant and they verified that my velocity numbers looked right.  They also recommended Reloder 10 instead.   I have found Reloder 7 to work well but have only used it for 405gr bullets. 

One powder I will play with at some point is Varget.  There was a magazine article that was about developing a load for 500+gr bullets in a trapdoor with Varget.  They had quite good results at 600 yards.   I can find the link if it's useful to you.

Chris.
  
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art_ruggiero
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #8 - Jul 12th, 2019 at 9:01am
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i would like that link   art
  
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gunlaker
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #9 - Jul 12th, 2019 at 9:05am
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Here it is Art:

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Chris.
  
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CptCurl
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #10 - Jul 13th, 2019 at 7:30am
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Interesting article.  Thanks for the link.

Curl
  
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4570mike
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #11 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 1:27pm
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John D,
Don't know if it's availabe where you are, but a good substitute is Blackhorn 209.
I use it in everything from 30 WCF to 45-70 and get excellent results.
One draw back; it's not cheap.
Mike.
  
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #12 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:42pm
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John - you did not post the bullet weight that you normally reload ... so here is a loading data chart for multiple  weights ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
The chart has several VihtaVouri grades of powder (bullet weight specific) that should be available in the UK
Good Shooting and might want to consider using the original gunpowder that performs best in the 45-70 Sharps all the way out to 1000yds Grin
  

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John
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john d
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #13 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 6:04pm
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Gentlemen, thanks to everyone who responded to my question re a substitute powder for Hodgdon 4198, now banned in the UK. (4895 is also banned as is Varget).

I currently shoot RNFP factory rounds 413 gn  and Postell 530 gn. again bought in

No chronograph so will have to exercise caution with reloder 7. it seems

Vitavouri is not banned (but Blackhorn 209 ingredients are withheld as a trade secret so the jury is out on that one).

Going to the range is a four / five hour round trip and so I try and get as many rounds down range as possible. To this end I perhaps  shoot 50 smokeless, of varying loads/ bullet weight. (413 RNFP and 530 gn Postell), then switch to Black Powder using same heads and Swiss No 3 (2fg). Using 65 gn as it does not like a lot of compression I'm told. (and yes I use a drop tube). cleaning with wet and dry patches between each shot.

Oddly enough, with smokeless, using a 530 gn Postel over 15 gn Unique, NO wad and NO Kapok, gave the best group at 130 yds.

Smokeless it is said needs to have a wad to protect the bullet base and kapok to keep the powder against the primer. So how come dispensing with both gave a better result.  I'm doing something wrong somewhere.
Goes against all the advice, position sensitive powder? and no protection of the base of the round (no gas Check).

Switching to Swiss No 3. 65 gn under both a 413 gn  RNFP and a 530  gn Postell gave about 12" group all low.

  I ve had a Lyman 457132 mould shipped over from the US and intend casting some rounds using roofing sheet (pure lead they say) and tin added (20/1).

At 81 I guess I.ve come into this a bit late in life but it is certainly more of a challenge than buying a box of ammo from the gun shop.

John D

  
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #14 - Jul 28th, 2019 at 11:23pm
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Why or I should ask, what excuse do they give for banning certain powders? A 500 grain bullet going 1300 fps is just as deadly using RL & as it is with anything else.
  

"White man have very strong Medicine. Shoot today maybeso kill you tomorrow." Esa-Tai Commanche warrior
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john d
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #15 - Jul 30th, 2019 at 3:48pm
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Hello Old Soldier.

Its all to do with the benefits??????? of being a member of the E.U. (European Union).

They have issued a directive, "REACH", which bans the importation of certain chemicals into the European Union.

Certain powders contain these banned chemical , some do not.

So it is not what the powder does to the bullet, it is what chemicals are used in the manufacture of the powder.

I have a list of 117 powders.

Of those 54 are allowed to be imported into the E.U. ( and therefore,  AT THE MOMENT, the UK).

The remainder contain either Dinitrotoluene  (toxic to reproduction), or Dibutyl  Phthalate  (carcinogenic).

So there you are now you know.

Regards

John D
  
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JS47
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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #16 - Jul 31st, 2019 at 12:19am
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I have found Reloader 7 to be an excellent powder in my 45-70's for higher velocity, heavy bullet loads. I couldn't get it to burn well with my lighter bullet. I have a 335 grain bullet from Accurate Molds similar to the old Gould hollow point bullet but with a flat point rather than a hollow point. RL 7 didn't work well but 14 grains of Unique and pistol primers gives wonderful accuracy at a little over 1200 fps.

JS

  

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Re: smokeless powder substitute types
Reply #17 - Jul 31st, 2019 at 12:24am
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I've heard that people have been drowning in water. I suppose the EU has banned that, too.
  
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