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Red Cent
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wads
Aug 2nd, 2019 at 1:04am
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At our last "Buffalo" match, I learned that two other shooters use wads over their smokeless loads. Not to worry since I have been told "put a little distance between wad and powder" and things will work out. One shooter uses a Browning Hi Wall in 45-70 and loads 21 grs of 2400 with the wad sitting and touching the pwoder. Another shooter uses a Pedersoli Hi Wall in 38-55 also places the wad on the powder.
The 45-70 shooter stated that he has been shooting this way for years and years.
The other shooter that does this uses a C Sharps Hi Wall in 38-55 and a Sharps '74 from C Sharps and he varies the placement of the wad but admits to putting the wad on the powder at times.
What gives?
  

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rkba2nd
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Re: wads
Reply #1 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 1:24am
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Possibly the barrel!
  

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Hiwall55
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Re: wads
Reply #2 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:12am
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Works good till it don't !
  
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SgtDog0311
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Re: wads
Reply #3 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:13am
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I think with some powders they risk ringing their chambers.   I use a wad at the base of my bullet (with very few loads) but I ensure a fit tight enough for the was to stay in place and I orient boxes for transport so as wads are not tempted to migrate.    They are not calling Dacron a wad are they?   Some do.    Even with Dacron burn rate of your powder is relative.
  

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Just Jim
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Re: wads
Reply #4 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:42am
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I may be guilty of following an old wive's tale, but I will not press a card wad down to the powder column in a load which does not fill the case.

In the dim and distant past, I used a load which called for a tuft of  kapok pressed down upon the powder, but I haven't used that for 30 years or more. I think a safer approach is to elevate your muzzle  before firing in an effort to position the powder column uniformly near the case head.

However, I am sure there are many who have used card wads for decades without incident. I'm just not lucky enough to try that!  Wink
  
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40_Rod
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Re: wads
Reply #5 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:08am
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Wads and wad placement is possibly the single most misunderstood aspect of reloading. First of all nothing I write has anything to do with loading black powder of duplex loading, that is a totally different animal.
  Charlie Dell did a lot of experimenting on the ringing of chambers. He got to the point where with the same amount of powder he could either ring or not ring a chamber at will.
First Charlie believed that most ringing is not one catastrophic event but that the ring is made over time a little bit at a time until it is finally noticed.
Secondly the ringing has more to do with the scape of the pressure produced than anything else. Think of a shape charge, if you take some plastic explosive and with a nail write your name fairly deeply in it and then lay it writing side down on a piece of steel and explode it you will see your name in the steel when it is recovered. This is similar to what happens when you take a wad and put it tight down on to the powder. When the powder is lit off the pressure forms a plug of pressure that slams into the base of the bullet. The bullet having mass and being stopped has momentary resistance to moving and that pressure looks for a place to escape. Depending on the hoop strength of the steel and the size of the charge this can result in the steel giving slightly to the pressure and forming a ring. This can be so slight that it takes many shots to notice it or in the case of a double charge for instance an instantaneous ring.
Charlie found that with normal charges of smokeless powder that leaving the powder as little as .050Ē off the powder and letting the powder slump he could change the shape of the pressure and eliminate the ringing. He found that if the slump was at the rear of the case facing the primer it was the most successful. In all Charlieís testing he was a bear about that asking every time if you were sure that you oriented the powder to the front of the case to let it slump when tipped straight to put it in the chamber.

40 Rod
  
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marlinguy
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Re: wads
Reply #6 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:09am
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Read Charlie Dell's work on intentionally ringing chambers with wads and you'll realize this isn't a myth. They were able to do it easily once they determined what powder to use, and where to place the wad.

  

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JLouis
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Re: wads
Reply #7 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 11:11am
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Having used wads in the past while also using smokeless and breech-seating they seemed to work best by placing the wad in the seater and seating it along with bullet at the same time. Never had much success with placing a wad inside of a case unless it was a small capacity case that required using one and then it would be placed at the mouth just never seemed to work well on or just off the powder for my own use.
  
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Ray_H
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Re: wads
Reply #8 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 12:40pm
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Just listening ............ (trying to learn)
I breech seat only and do regularly place a FF wad at the case mouth - not against the powder.
It appears to me that this discussion of ringing applies more to one using "fixed" ammunition as opposed to BSed.
Am I missing something?
Thanks. Ray
  

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rgchristensen
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Re: wads
Reply #9 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 1:05pm
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Ray_H wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 12:40pm:
Just listening ............ (trying to learn)
I breech seat only and do regularly place a FF wad at the case mouth - not against the powder.
It appears to me that this discussion of ringing applies more to one using "fixed" ammunition as opposed to BSed.
Am I missing something?
Thanks. Ray


     The ringing depends only on the powder being symmetrically confined behind the bullet.   This gives a nice, uniform column of gas impacting on the base of the bullet, wherever the bullet might be.   Gases under acceleration (or deceleration, which is the same thing, depending on your viewpoint) assume an exponential pressure distribution.  The Earth's atmosphere is a case in point.   Very high pressures can be attained, and if they exceed the strength of the gun-barrel, a ring or burst will result.  So, in some cases you can get away with it, sometimes not.
      Charlie Dell and Bill Helbert showed that rings could be produced WITHOUT a wad to confine the powder, by firing a rifle straight up.
      This effect was first described by Vieille in the 19th Century, and more extensively discussed by Burrard, a British ballistician, ca. 1930.

CHRIS
RGChristensen
  
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Red Cent
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Re: wads
Reply #10 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:15pm
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Interesting.
I will add that it is said that a load can be "tuned" by placing the wad at a sweetspot depth.
One would think one could find some testing/research that is current on this subject.
And I will bet you that there are few shooters on this site that use wads in their smokeless fixed cartridges.  Cool
  

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Fred Boulton
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Re: wads
Reply #11 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 5:45am
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Am I correct in believing that all Charlie Dell's work was with breach seating?
Fred
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: wads
Reply #12 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 7:38am
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Fred Boulton wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 5:45am:
Am I correct in believing that all Charlie Dell's work was with breach seating?
Fred


FRED:
       Certainly most of his shooting of all sorts was breech-seating, but I don't know about the chamber-ringing experiments.   AAR, it doesn't make any difference in the physics of the phenomenon.
CHRIS
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Fred Boulton
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Re: wads
Reply #13 - Aug 5th, 2019 at 5:39am
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? if the chamber is full of brass case, then it must make a difference.
Fred
  
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Re: wads
Reply #14 - Aug 5th, 2019 at 7:26am
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I use a tuft of Dacron filler and a card wad under my paperpatched smokeless loads.
The Dacron stops the wad from ever falling out the case neck and protects the soft lead base from propellant kernels deformation apon ignition.

I use a Dacron tuft . Very small on my fixed or breach seated 310 cadet loads to keep the powder charge in the case and oriented and stop powder going everywhere if I extract a case and debullet it.
I have tried disks as well on and off the powder but got worried and went back to the Dacron.
I hate inhailing the burnt plastic ....but it shoots so good.

Is there a better way in a case with only a couple of grains of powder to keep it consistently in one place.

I donít like the ringing idea and there is a marked difference in velocities between powder positioned forward or back.

Thanks.
Bruce
  
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Re: wads
Reply #15 - Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:12am
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Decades ago I found an old seat cushion at the dump, ripped it open and took about a half-shopping bag full of Kapok home.  I still use that on the rare occasions I need to keep a relatively small smokeless charge next to the primer in a large case.

Itís orange, fibrous stuff that disappears in a flame.  No melting; just gone.  A tiny amount, teased out, is enough to grip the sides of the shell and hold the powder down.  I push it down against the powder with the eraser end of a pencil.  It can be shaken loose, of course, but normal handling is OK.

I notice the difference in accuracy in freakishly long cases like the .40-3-1/4Ē Sharps Straight, with bulkier powders that burn incompletely when the pressure drops, like 4759 and 5744.  Otherwise, itís an extra loading step that Iíd rather avoid.

No chamber rings yet.
  
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Re: wads
Reply #16 - Aug 6th, 2019 at 11:09am
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Best material I found over the years was 1/16 cork. What's odd 3/32 cork and allot less expensive would open up the groups substantially. Wads were inserted into the seater and seated with the bullet and shooting a 32-40. I believe it provided two benefits protecting the base of the bullet and providing a positive gas seal. Won allot of honors over the years using that process and the wad punch one of Fred Cornell's.
  
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Re: wads
Reply #17 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 5:56am
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I shoot blackpowder cartridge, Always with wad over powder
have a 38-55 using a thin walter card wad and a 45-90 using a .060 low density polyethylene wad over the powder. shoot bought accurate
  
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Re: wads
Reply #18 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 8:13am
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For BP cartridges I use fiber filler wads like you would use in a shotgun but cut to fit in a 40 or 50 cal case. They are also cut to specific heights to match the load with no space left in the case. Accuracy has been good but experimenting continues. With smokeless, I use either kapok or polyester filler and weigh the amount out before putting it in over the powder. I don't leave any open space but don't pack it tight either. In accuracy trials, polyester seems to be showing an edge over kapok. That's just my experience. Thanks, ratseye
  
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40_Rod
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Re: wads
Reply #19 - Aug 8th, 2019 at 9:58am
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Barrabruce
In Charlie's expariments he Proved that the worst stuff that you can use is Dacron. it turns into a sticky goopy plug that asserbates ringing.

40 Rod
  
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Re: wads
Reply #20 - Aug 9th, 2019 at 1:53pm
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Just goes to show the widely differing results you get with different cartridge/powder/bullet combinations. The fiber fill I use comes out un-burned in this instance and as I said testing continues. Thanks, ratseye
  
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Re: wads
Reply #21 - Aug 9th, 2019 at 11:53pm
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Thanks 40 rod.
I think Iím seeing my little Dacron wads down in the grass unburnt.
But then I also get some black mummies and bits in cases also at times.

I will see if I can find some kapok.
I have tried cotton balls teased out but didnít like the way it compressed into a hard disk easily.
And anything that may smoulder is a big no thanks to me as setting the country ablaze is not what I would be liked to remembered by..

The smoke on extracting the case is grey white maybe a touch of green.
Could it nitroglycerin in the powder?
I have some SK std plus tin of 22lr that I find is also plastic like smell to it also.

Thnx Iím enjoying this thread.

I could just maybe put a thing paper wad on case mouth and try that to see if it would work also.
  
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