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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets (Read 2080 times)
Barrabruce
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #15 - May 11th, 2020 at 8:47am
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I have a ideal 308241 Pb 150 grn mould.
It has a scraper groove up front.
The nose casts slightly smaller than bore diameter and the groove may actually weaken the nose section from bending.
It has shot shot very well for me dipped lubed with light smokeless loads.
All I can offer about that.
  
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bpjack
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #16 - May 11th, 2020 at 10:58am
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I shot the NEI 349C extensively in my Shiloh business rifle when I first started shooting BP.  I too lubed the scraper groove so I am not sure that it did much scraping.  I shot quite a few 1-1/2” 200 yd groups at during practice and even won a 300 yd. sitting cross stick match at Tacoma one year with a 97 3x. It was my first ever win. 

Jack
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #17 - May 11th, 2020 at 10:50pm
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I just found a Steve Brooks .40 mold with a scraper band about half way down the  nose from  lube grooves.  It has been used, but I can't remember what happened  Embarrassed
  

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DocRock
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #18 - May 20th, 2020 at 1:25am
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If one assumes that the concept works and it catches and holds previous fouling in a groove, what is happening to the collected fouling as the bullet rotates down the barrel? And, of most impotance, at exit from the muzzle? Assuming rotational force keeps any collected fouling evenly distributed around the groove during barrel travel, what happens in exit? Is it flung off evenly? I don't know the answer, nor dare I posit one, but without knowing whether the fouling trapped in the groove is evenly distributed and ejected by the rotational force of the bullet on exiting the muzzle with no impact on stabilization and flight path, I would fear adding yet another variable to ballistics. Mind you, paper patched bullets have a scouting effect, to some extent, and they shed not just fouling, but their paper without horrific impact.

Since like Beckett, I seek simplicity and the removal of variables, I would probably be opposed to such a groove. But I must add that I am curmudgeonly, somewhat opposed to innovation, and only just getting comfortable with the hep-cat, new fangled use of that "smokeless" powder that seems all the rage. So my views on the matter may safely be discounted...
  
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hepburnman
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #19 - May 20th, 2020 at 12:07pm
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How does one know how large to make the scraper groove to collect the fouling? If it were to fill up and not accept any more fouling would you not have the same situation as a bullet without a scraper groove? Could the bullet now, once the groove is filled up, potentially ride up over the remaining fouling?
  
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JLouis
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #20 - May 20th, 2020 at 12:46pm
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It is a wiper band that is in front of the first lube groove. It pushes everything in front of it down and out of the barrel so there is nothing to get into a groove. Size is basically 2 to 3 thousands give or take over the actual groove size.
« Last Edit: May 20th, 2020 at 12:56pm by JLouis »  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #21 - May 20th, 2020 at 3:58pm
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It's supposed to push the fouling in front of it, not too sure it does...
Following your logic, almost any bullet would do the same.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #22 - May 20th, 2020 at 5:46pm
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Don't know if there is a benefit to it or not. The only bullet that I have with it is my 25 cal. 120 grain Mos.
  
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JS47
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #23 - May 21st, 2020 at 3:54pm
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This has been an interesting discussion. I think when I order the mold I'll add the groove. It won't hurt anything and I think the main value could be in the added lube ahead of the driving bands, especially in the hot dry climate of Southern Arizona where I've been doing most of my shooting.

JS
« Last Edit: May 21st, 2020 at 8:48pm by JS47 »  

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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #24 - May 21st, 2020 at 8:20pm
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When the minie bullet was being developed in the US for the new 58 caliber rifled muskets the grooves in the circumference of the bullets were intended to be scraper grooves to push fouling from the previous shot out the barrel thus enabling continuous firing. Apparently it worked fairly well.
The lubed bullet had been developed a few years before by Richard Lawrence of Robbins and Lawrence for the Sharps percussion rifles to keep accuracy after more than a few shots.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #25 - May 22nd, 2020 at 2:16am
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Deadeye Bly wrote on May 21st, 2020 at 8:20pm:
When the minie bullet was being developed in the US for the new 58 caliber rifled muskets the grooves in the circumference of the bullets were intended to be scraper grooves to push fouling from the previous shot out the barrel thus enabling continuous firing. Apparently it worked fairly well.
The lubed bullet had been developed a few years before by Richard Lawrence of Robbins and Lawrence for the Sharps percussion rifles to keep accuracy after more than a few shots. 

Except that the Brit PP bullet (Pritchett) was actually better at it - shooting dirty, that is...  And it didn't have any grooves at all.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #26 - May 22nd, 2020 at 2:17am
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JS, suggest you just add a lube groove in front, the scraper groove is pretty hard to fill with lube.   Mine wouldn't while pan-lubing.
  
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JS47
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #27 - May 22nd, 2020 at 7:20pm
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MartiniBelgian wrote on May 22nd, 2020 at 2:17am:
JS, suggest you just add a lube groove in front, the scraper groove is pretty hard to fill with lube.   Mine wouldn't while pan-lubing.


I guess I'm having trouble with the terminology here. I visualize the lube groove ahead of the front band and the scraper groove to be one and the same. The front band, or wiper band, scrapes the fouling into the groove ahead of it. Have I got it right? A picture would be helpful for sure.

JS
  

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #28 - May 23rd, 2020 at 5:35am
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A scraper groove has the front bore diameter or less, and the rear groove diameter.  Also the front usually is quite a bit tapered, which is what makes it hard for lube to stay in there.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Scraper Grooves on Black Powder Bullets
Reply #29 - May 23rd, 2020 at 12:36pm
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First band behind the nose is the wiper.

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