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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hartford Pope rifle (Read 2970 times)
scharfe
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Hartford Pope rifle
Feb 22nd, 2021 at 11:09pm
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I have located what I believe is #12. It's a High Wall. I do not have the Pope books. What I would like to know is it mentioned in them ?
  
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RDBallard
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #1 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 1:29am
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Skips from 10 to 13
  
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scharfe
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #2 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 4:05am
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Thank you, Tim
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #3 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 10:25am
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Just a note on early Hartford Pope barrels. They usually have no markings under the forearm to indicate bore or twist rate like later Pope Hartford barrels have. In looking through the Pope books it shows only one barrel below around #150 that has any markings beyond the serial number.
  

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OLD TUCK
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #4 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 12:11pm
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Some of his first Hartford's the only place where there was a number was the False Muzzle. I know where #10 is and it's only marked on the False Muzzle. It is a Ballard and is in the Book. A friend of mine owns it. We had to buy it at Auction.
It first showed up as just a barreled action and stock. no inside parts. Came reasonably cheap. I was talking to another friend and he new the source. He told us the last time he saw it was at a gunsmiths apart. with the innards in a cigar box. So we went back to the Auction Co. and asked, they did find the cigar box with the parts and let us know about them. But said they had to go through the regular Auction because they were part of an Estate. My friend and I were there 
and he had to bid quite high to make sure he got it. We checked with a Dealer who has handled a lot of Pope Rifles and he confirmed that at Popes beginning 
at Hartford quite a few were only numbered on the False Muzzle. He knew of this Rifle and had been trying for some number of years to track it down but just kept 
missing it. We have not fired it but it does have a bright Shiny I would say good bore. There is a good History  of the owners in Volume 1. The book describes the bore as ruined but it is far from ruined. HTH FITZ, OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #5 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 1:28pm
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Wonderful info Fitz! It's always nice to hear more info that we can't find in books! I am glad Claude Roderick tracked down so many of the Pope barreled guns, and even happier that he was able to also track down some ownership on a good many and record it. In the case of one of mine he listed 5 or 6 of the owners before it "went missing" in the 1970's. Since I bought it from the estate, and knew it had been owned by the same man over 40 years, I was able to complete the chain after it disappeared.
  

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scharfe
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #6 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 6:51pm
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Here are pictures of the roll marks and stamps under the barrel.
  
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GT
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #7 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 7:28pm
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That looks like maybe an original Winchester barrel that Pope rifled???  maybe re-rifled?  I am jealous!
  

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scharfe
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #8 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 7:36pm
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It's not # 12. i just got a picture of the false muzzle. It has 329 on it. So we don't know what the # 12 is for and what looks like 529 is 329.
  
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jfeldman
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #9 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 8:37pm
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And it skips from #326 to #330 Sad

Regards,
Joe
  
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scharfe
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #10 - Feb 24th, 2021 at 8:54am
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Not being in the book is good. If this rifle is the real thing it wouldn't have been available for inspection when the book was written.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #11 - Feb 24th, 2021 at 10:50am
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scharfe wrote on Feb 24th, 2021 at 8:54am:
Not being in the book is good. If this rifle is the real thing it wouldn't have been available for inspection when the book was written.


But the books are based on very old data that Claude Roderick had gathered decades before the books were published. So most of the guns in the Hartford Pope books were part of Claude's 3"x5" file card records that were donated to ASSRA later. So a gun not being in the books means it never got Claude's attention, he never personally saw it, and the owner never contacted him back when he was actively seeking information from owners through the ASSRA.
Since Claude's recordings, and the books publishing, there are a number of guns that have come to light and were not in Claude's records, or the books. And I'm sure with holes in the known records, even more will continue to be found in the future. 
Whenever I see one I immediately check the Hartford Pope books. If it's not there I make up a sheet and add it between pages in the book for my future reference. I'd enjoy knowing more about this Pope rifle just to add to my own records. So if you can reveal anything else about the rifle it's attached to, the caliber, or any other specifics, I'd sure appreciate knowing it. Can't quite make out the code there? It looks sort of like "21 and 1.41" ? The 1.41 is pretty common, but would like to know what the first number is for sure?
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #12 - Feb 24th, 2021 at 11:06am
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Thinking about the code markings, and the matted top on this Winchester barrel, I think this is a rebore by Pope. Likely he took a .32-40 factory Winchester barrel and bored it out. Then rifled it to a .33-47 caliber. 
Pope used a 1:18" twist rate usually in his .32-40 barrels, but in his .33-47 barrels he used a 1:21" twist rate. So this being marked 21/1.41 would indicate he made this a .33-47 caliber.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #13 - Feb 24th, 2021 at 11:36am
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Twist rates for both seem a little slow. Assuming this is in regards to gain twists might these be the starting rates at the chamber end and not the finished rate at the muzzle.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Hartford Pope rifle
Reply #14 - Feb 24th, 2021 at 3:23pm
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JLouis wrote on Feb 24th, 2021 at 11:36am:
Twist rates for both seem a little slow. Assuming this is in regards to gain twists might these be the starting rates at the chamber end and not the finished rate at the muzzle.


I think compared to what guys are shooting these days they are slow. But compared to what factory twist rates were at the time Pope's were right there at factory. 
But the 1.41 is indeed his code for a gain twist. So it would be a faster twist by the time it reached the crown. Not sure about my math, but I think the result might be around a 1:12.5" twist at the other end? Maybe somebody knows for sure how the 1.41 relates to gain?
  

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