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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Breech Seating Wads (Read 1734 times)
JLouis
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #15 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 12:22pm
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For me and for reasons unknown to me the 1/16 cork has provided better accuracy than than 3/32. But it is also quite abit more expensive. I have also experienced better accuracy and consistency by not using a wad. This going back to when I experimenting with a 32Miller Short, 33 RKS Schuetzen and a 357 Max straight tapered to 28. All.just did not pan out for me and were short lived. So I no longer use any small capacity cases so the quality and the density of the cork might have also changed.
  

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rgchristensen
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #16 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 12:32pm
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The use of cork wads always seemed a little strange to me.   Cork under pressure collapses in all directions, where-as a card wad maintains its shape, perhaps compressing a little in the longitudinal direction.

CHRIS
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #17 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 12:34pm
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To be a little more clear (perhaps), Charlie Dell's experimental results were that a powder surface parallel to the base of the bullet with an air space (as in a case with no wad at all fired vertically, straight up, or a wad pressed down on the powder surface holding that surface parallel to the base of the bullet) could result in an intense pressure wave forming that could result in a ring forming in the chamber at the base of the bullet. As long as the surface of the powder has room to shift so that it is not exactly parallel to the base of the bullet, the pressure wave does not form. (This is what the French experimenter also found and gave his name to the pressure wave.) So a card wad say 1/8 inch off the surface of the powder with an air space between it and the bullet is OK. The wad then hitting the base of the bullet is of no consequence. Likewise, the wad at the mouth of a case separated by 1/16 inch from the breech seated bullet is of no consequence because the powder in the case is free to move around and not have a parallel surface to the bullet base.
  
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westerner
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #18 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 1:24pm
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I've had accurate results with sheet cork wads in BP loads. Most likely bound with rubber but not sure. Perty sure all sheet cork has a binder of some sort to keep it from falling apart.† 
It was the most accurate wad material used when working up loads in my 38-55 breech muzzleloader. Maybe it's elasticity allows it to seal the bore better than stiff wads.† 

Read a few years ago about a shooter finding cork wads in the bore after firing. They had turned sideways. Prabably not good.
  

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #19 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 1:25pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Jan 13th, 2022 at 10:00am:
Lyman: Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual. 2nd Edition pg. 130 "Load Density: A full case of powder with no air space is considered loaded to 100% density. This is a good idea with black powder cartridge, especially for accuracy. If the powder charge does not take up all of the air space in the cartridge case, a filler is recommended."

SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer. pg. 22 "THERE SHOULD NEVER BE ANY AIR SPACE LEFT BETWEEN THE BASE OF THE BULLET AND THE POWDER BECAUSE A RINGED CHAMBER COULD RESULT. ALWAYS TOUCH THE BULLET'S BASE TO THE CARD WAD" and "AGAIN WE WANT TO STRESS THAT THE EXACT AMOUNT OF BLACK POWDER USED IS UNIMPORTANT. THE IDEA IS TO FILL THE CASE COMPLETELY TO THE BASE OF THE BULLET."

Charlie Dell's barrel ring testing indicated it did not occur frequently and may not occur when the rifle is always fired in a level condition - however ringing would start as you started to shoot the rifle in a more elevated (UPWARDS) position.

So those who indicate that they got away with using procedures other than those that are recommended - may yet encounter a time when it may not be so successful.

I have seen a few cases where people have ringed their barrel or chamber and were not even aware of it since sometimes it takes a bore scope to see it.


Charlie Dell also said it was easier to ring a barrel with smokeless than with BP....  But having airspace with nitro isn't dangerous?  And no, I don't fire rifles vertically.  Neither do I push down wads on the powder.
Still trying to ring several barrels, but it just won't work....  Despite shooting period, soft-steel barrels.   
Thank you, but I'll believe W.W. Greener.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #20 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 2:07pm
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Gert, have you found any differences in uniformity in results with loose black vs contained black?
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #21 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 2:41pm
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I have seen†a soft steel Stevens 44 that ringed its chamber.
Cotton balls were pushed down on the 4227 powder in .25-20 SS cases and the bullets were breech seated.
He realized the chamber was ringed when the cases bulged into the chamber ring and could not be removed easily.

A modern stainless steel RKS barrel was ringed from placing a floral foam wad down on the AA #9 powder. He was breech seating his .32 RKS and never discovered the ring until he checked his barrel with a bore scope. The ring formed at the base of the seated bullet. The rifle had only been fired level except for the slight incline at Tommy Mason's Stars and Stripes range. 

A .32-40 rifle with a RKS chrome moly barrel ringed a few inches in front of the chamber from placing a wad (unknown-shooter was known to use milk carton wads) on a smokeless powder (unknown- I believe it was probably AA #9). Again he never knew his barrel was ringed until we used our bore scope to inspect it since the 1885 rifle was for sale.

I have not seen a BP ringed barrel although other shooters have indicated they have bought BPCR rifles that had been ringed. I fully load my case with BP to make sure I do not destroy my fine firearms.

Charlie Dell (highly respected) has stated he has ringed barrels with BP. That is adequate verification for me.

Ringing of barrels does occur regardless of some people thinking it only occurs from a blockage in the barrel.

Yes you can have air space shooting nitro - but there has to be airspace between the powder and a wad. 
NEVER place a wad down on smokeless powder.
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2022 at 3:22pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #22 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 3:26pm
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Joe I have had Vegetable Wads turned side ways and left in the bore and never had cork do the same.
  

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #23 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 3:44pm
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oneatatime wrote on Jan 13th, 2022 at 2:07pm:
Gert, have you found any differences in uniformity in results with loose black vs contained black?

Not for military rifle shooting - The loads shoot better than I can handle the sights.  Might be important with match rifle though, but then I'm not using such big cases in my BP match rifles.
  
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #24 - Jan 13th, 2022 at 10:56pm
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I use 1/8 " .
Lee Gibbs Pres.ASSRA
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #25 - Jan 14th, 2022 at 1:50am
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Schuetzendave wrote on Jan 13th, 2022 at 2:41pm:
I have seen†a soft steel Stevens 44 that ringed its chamber.
Cotton balls were pushed down on the 4227 powder in .25-20 SS cases and the bullets were breech seated.
He realized the chamber was ringed when the cases bulged into the chamber ring and could not be removed easily.

A modern stainless steel RKS barrel was ringed from placing a floral foam wad down on the AA #9 powder. He was breech seating his .32 RKS and never discovered the ring until he checked his barrel with a bore scope. The ring formed at the base of the seated bullet. The rifle had only been fired level except for the slight incline at Tommy Mason's Stars and Stripes range. 

A .32-40 rifle with a RKS chrome moly barrel ringed a few inches in front of the chamber from placing a wad (unknown-shooter was known to use milk carton wads) on a smokeless powder (unknown- I believe it was probably AA #9). Again he never knew his barrel was ringed until we used our bore scope to inspect it since the 1885 rifle was for sale.

I have not seen a BP ringed barrel although other shooters have indicated they have bought BPCR rifles that had been ringed. I fully load my case with BP to make sure I do not destroy my fine firearms.

Charlie Dell (highly respected) has stated he has ringed barrels with BP. That is adequate verification for me.

Ringing of barrels does occur regardless of some people thinking it only occurs from a blockage in the barrel.

Yes you can have air space shooting nitro - but there has to be airspace between the powder and a wad. 
NEVER place a wad down on smokeless powder.


Dave,

I think you just proved that it is way easier to ring a barrel with nitro than with black, the main culprit being people seating a wad directly on top of the powder to hold it back against the primer.
Yes, Charlie did prove that it was possible to ring a barrel with black - obviously.  I do believe he said it was more difficult than with nitro.
What is important to know is that ringing a barrel is not a 1-time event - it usually happens gradually.
Still, we take precautions with black we don't take with nitro, even though the risk is greater?
  
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #26 - Jan 14th, 2022 at 10:11am
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One other thing about ringing and the airspace That Charlei Dell left between the wad and powder. When doing his experiments with his rail gun and his 32 X 357 Dell case Charlie always tipped the case mouth down and then put in the chamber so that the slope was facing the primer. Charlie was a bear about that when we helped him out. He would check every time that I had done that when I Helped him. 

40 Rod
  
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #27 - Jan 14th, 2022 at 10:24am
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The post is not to discredit anybodyís statements regarding wads place on smokeless powder, only a confession of my sins. 

Years ago I read an article about the development of smokeless powder and a French scientist, whose name I donít remember, proved the pressure wave of smokeless powders increased two to three times the chamber pressure when a wad was placed on the powder leaving an air space to the base of the bullet. With that thought I surmised that a low pressure cast bullet load running under 20,000 psi would run 60,000 psi or less with a wad on the powder. I had a Browning BPCR in 40-65 that shot well but like most I wanted more accuracy so one day I took the chance of playing with wad height by decreasing the air gap with a safe load a little at a time. The closer I got the wad to the powder the better the groups and the wad on the powder proved to be the best. All through the process I examined the brass and chamber for any signs of over stressing and found none. I shot this rifle over three thousand rounds using the wad on the powder loads with no problems except for the occasional brass failure at the base of the bulletís seating, usually around 20 or so firings. Living dangerously yes but I also used a modern Highwall and a barrel of known quality, one that I figured would take 60,000 psi poundings all day long. Do I recommend this loading technique to anybody else?.... no Never. My days of living on that side of the fence are over.

Now, since that time I have tried to duplicate the accuracy I was experiencing with the wad placement and have yet to meet the same mark but all in all thatís half the fun of shooting cast bullets. Anybody got any methods or loads that shoot lights out please share before I go off the deep end and again break out the wads!
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2022 at 10:47am by Premod70 »  
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #28 - Jan 14th, 2022 at 3:30pm
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westerner wrote on Jan 13th, 2022 at 5:41am:
Have shot 40 gr FFF under a 350 gr bullet in my Pacific 45-70. No problems. Good OH practice load. 

Internet mantra. Yep. It must be true, I seen it on the web.


But I Googled then somebody said you can't do it..... But I never tried it but I tell everybody you can't do it and the guy i told you can't do it tells  everybody you can't do it. And it goes on and on....

A friend of mine experimented with that and a lead crusher tester he made to measure the pressures . He said he saw no problems with there being a space face between the black powder and the bullets.

He even tried to blow up a muzzle loader barrel by intentionally not seating the ball over the powder to the point of it was inches away from the powder. he called bullshit in the stuff 30 years ago
  
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Re: Breech Seating Wads
Reply #29 - Jan 14th, 2022 at 3:41pm
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Are we still talking about breech seating only or now onto something other than? 
Not trying to be rude but just trying to figure out what everyone is now talking about.
  

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